Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

[Bart]

spent some more midnight oil. finished up the last 2 injector holders. just have to true up the joint where top and bottom meet. only one done so far.
so as for the intake tubes, i really want to keep a set or 2 around, now that saturn has no more to sell. i picked up the last one that they had in the bin,( it was for the #2 intake.)
and looking at what i had on hand, I didn't have a spare #4 intake tube. (didn't want to use the only one on hand)
but looking at what i could do, with a couple of the tubes that i have for the 2A042 motor. I could make the #2, 042 tube work. with a little cutting. and splicing,
the 042 tubes sit about 1/2" proud. and just a little longer. the pictures will show what i did.
still debating on if i want to weld a bandage over the cut between the 2 90's. or just use the 1-3/8 neoprene tubing....( I am afraid that if i weld, there might/could be some internal bumps that would slow down the air flow.)

looking at placing the injectors on the inboard side of all the intake tubes. the reasoning behind is so there is no hoses to catch on anything if the trees get to close .....
with the magneto gone, there is plenty of room for the #1 tube. #2 and #3 have plenty of room on both sides. the funnest one is intake #4. the best fit for it is coming up under the 90 on tube #2.
this jig that i built, really came in handy for this project. saves working over the motor and risk dropping something down the intake.
i will spend a couple of days before i drill and mount the holders on the tubes, just to think about the placement. the jig is nice, but I will need to vitally place the holder on the motor, just so they are not in the way of the push rod tubes & don't put them over the intake mounting bolt holes....

[Bart]

the rest of the story

[Bart]

Corky

as for the fuel delivery system, after looking at all that is out there. my main concern is the amperage draw of the fuel pumps. they are any where form 5 to 20 amps. so I started looking at the newer snowmachine setups. they are fuel injected, and can run off the stator out put... with no battery.

so i picked up a set up off a 2008 polaris. mainly because i am kind of familiar with them...
i pulled this information off a snowmachine forum.

the specs for the fuel system is
The Seimens-style fuel pressure regulator (FPR) that is built into the Pump Flange Assambly (PFA) of the PRO Chassis CFI sleds is set at a non adjustable 4-Bar (58psi)
There is about a 5% +/- on that.
The pump itself, a Walbro #F20000286 is rated at 39.7 gal/hr at 58 psi with 14V source draws 6.6 amp
10.6 gal/hr at 58 psi with 8V source
shutoff pressure 101.5-152.25 psi
http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/fppumps.html
http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/pics/155lph.jpg

from what i know at this time. I enter the fuel pressure into the software, and from that i will be able to determine the opening and duration of the fuel being injected per shot. at any given RPM.
maybe i am wrong, but at least it sounds feasible.
i am going with the polaris fuel tank for the moment. for it is a plug and play item. maybe i will build one later this spring. this tank does hold 12 gallons, and is only 15" wide. and a little over 2 feet long.

[Corky]

I'm looking at the throttle body mounted on the intake tubes and I have to wonder for simplicity and waterproofing...It sure looks like the 084s original air cleaner set-up could be adapted to work....

[Bart]

Corky, when you ask the fuel pressure requirements...
I first think of fuel pump, and regulator, then the specs for the injector, and last how on earth, will i develop a base mapping for this motor,
when as far as I know Les Smoot had a set up with the SDS system, and when i visited with them ( SDS) last summer, they mentioned that they had someone else putting their product on an 4A084 motor also. but I haven't heard anything since,
the numerous times that I have emailed the SDS company, they have been more than willing to answer my questions. but now that I am going to use another operating system, it is hard for me to want to ask for answers, with out using their product,... unless things have been updated, and from my limited understanding, they give you a base mapping set up. but then you need to correct the mapping according to your how your motor runs. at least more the motors like the 084, that isn't in high demand.
but maybe I will drop the person that I have been emailing the last 3 years, and at least tell them thanks one more time. for all the help that they have been.
below is the link to the injector that they recommended.
yes it is way overkill, if you go to an injector web page, and enter in the known data for the 084 motor, when i asked them, about that. their answer was more that satisfactory. at least my memory is that
(yes the 80 to 90 c injectors will work, but they will be closed maxed out. and are running close to full capacity) and then when i started looking at the injector sizes, that similar 4 cylinder motors were running,
i am more than comfortable to go with what SDS recommended.. for they have done the research.
(but there are over a thousand injectors to choose from, and just as many ideas.)

http://www.thunder-max.com/techdocs/...ectorspecs.pdf


here is a link to what the speeduino web page explains for base mapping the injectors
https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php/Tuning
and board will have the tunerstudio firmware
http://www.tunerstudio.com/index.php/tuner-studio
until i actually get my set up and download the firmware, I really don't have any good answers, but there is a lot of support, as long as i can get all the gauges/sensors set up to talk with the firmware, but that is why I have a son learning in the instrumentation field. with his help. at least I will have a go-to-guy... for all the answers.

[Bart]

there has been a little more progress, and a few learning curves,
so I finally finished up the last of the injector boss turning, i could have purchased them for 40 to 50 dollars each. but it has been a fun project. a couple of lessons learned
for some reason I had in my mind to use 1.25 round stock for the injectors bungs... it would have been better to use 1.5 or 1-3/8" stock. the reason why... there would have been an larger landing for the 2 screws to attach the halves together. i ended up turning the heads down on some 6-32 screws. so that they would fit.
i had been thinking that 8-32 would have been the smallest. but there just wasn't enough meat left on the barrels, that i felt comfortable with. so 6-32 screws it was...
then i am learning that if i can use the collets to hold a piece, it really cuts down the set up time when trying to do any production. my 4C collets only go up to 3/4". so the last three injectors I held the top to 11/16" so for the final mating up. i could use the collet chuck, and save a few minutes on dialing them in...
looking on the SDS web page, they had a good article on installing the injector bosses to the tubes. so i followed that, about the only thing that i questioned was for the final hole they used a 13/32 bit to drill and elongate it. i was looking at that and i just seemed kind of small. (the injector bottom measurement was .630" )But knowing that they have done more than a couple. i followed their instructions. and found out that after elongating the hole. it looked spot on..
http://www.sdsefi.com/bossmount.htm
another problem, that I almost had was where i was wanting to place the bosses on the tubes. all the examples that I had seen,,, up until now, they have either been installed on a flat surface, or a straight tube, Well the 084 tubes have a couple if bends, that need to be worked around, tube intakes, #2 & #4, were simple. drilled them out on the drill press, and then i came to #1 & # 3, ( need to get a little better at this pre-planning thing. when I went to elongate the hole. the bend was in the way for the drill press. and almost in the way for a hand held drill. but I was able to make it work...would have been a lot simpler if i would have had a 13/32 drill bit that was 12" long...
there is a lot of learning after the fact going on with this...

[Bart]

there was a very simple method to tack the bungs to the tubes, with using the drill bit to keep things lined up. I was able to keep the finished height somewhat uniform for all of them.
they recommend tacking them inplace, then tig them. I don't have access to a tig machine at the moment. so mig it was. not the best looking welds. but it will work, got a few more things i want to do out in the shed, but we got a cold spell finally. sitting next to the water with it at a -6. it just is not fun playing in an unheated shop...
but after welding the bungs on, the placement doesn't look to bad on my template...
now the fun part of getting my crank sensor mounted and then the dreaded wiring.....

[Bart]

so I got the speeduino board for Christmas, sometimes it may be lame to know what you are getting, but on the bright side it is something that I will use...
it was kind of fun and a little learning experience to download the firmware... like they say this is a DIY project. the instructions are pretty simple, you just need to read the whole sentence and not skip over any step.
now with this firmware loaded, now everything is waiting on the wiring... from a generic template that one had posted on the forum it looks simple enough. and even though I have read and reread a lot of the posts that are there for new people like me...like yesterday, on the pin layout. it is set up with only 4 terminals for the spark plugs, and utilizes the wasted spark. so with from what i understand, i have 2 options. with the firing order on the 084 being 1-4-2-3
use 2 pins for the 4 coils.
Pin # 7 (ignition 1) #1 & #2 coils.
Pin # 33 (ignition 2) #3 & #4 coils.
or..

Pin #7 (ignition 1) #1 coil.
Pin # 34 (ignition 2) # 4 coil.
Pin # 33 (Ignition 3) #2 coil.
Pin # 8 (ignition 4) # 3 coil.

for the life of me until yesterday i was assuming that the (Ignition #) was referencing the appropriate cylinder, Nope, after reading a couple of posts. this is the firing order. the same goes with the injectors. but there are 8 pins for the injectors, in case you want to install 2 injectors per cylinder...
for what ever reason, in the diagram, he is using a single coil pack, from what i understand the speeduino board does not support it. so I am finding that I need to really take time and read everything, and follow the instructions.
this really will come into play, when I start entering in the parameters for the sensors, and the items, that tunerstudios requires for the proper input.
so at the moment. I am working on getting the wiring harness set up. for the different components...
A. coils
B. injectors
C. coolant, air intake, & throttle positioning sensor.
D. crank shaft sensor.
F. fuel pump
E. O2 sensor
there may be a few more, but this should be enough to start with.
there is always a little entertainment along the way, like the crank shaft sensor that i have been planning on using. it was an extra one that i had laying around... that went to a 97 6.5 diesel. but the 3 wires coming off it are black, gray, black. one is 5 volt input. one is ground to the board, one is signal to pin # 25. But which wire is what, I have reached out to a couple of companies, maybe i will get an answer, maybe not. at times I wish, I had got more information from Armorer243, on how he built his hall sensor from scratch... which if i want to go with the square wave signal I may end up building one using a Melexis # MLX90217
https://www.google.com/search?q=MELE...hrome&ie=UTF-8

I guess, if i do build one, I just need to follow these instructions...
" designed to be used with a bias magnet south facing the back (non-marked) side of the IC. The device has an open collector output which is short circuit protected." page #6 of the attachment.
just never have built something like this before, so at the moment it seems like a mystery. but i may end up learning how yet..

I do have a variable reluctance sensor, that came off another motor, that is always in the back up plan... but then i need to add another small board to the main board to convert the sign wave into a square wave...

an other item that i did purchase, was a bluetooth sender to attach to the board. and that had to be soldered to the back of 4 pins.

still needing to acquire,
water tight case & appropriate plug connectors for the box and parts of the wire loom. I have been looking at the Metri-Pack 150 series automotive connectors, to get some things coming...

[Bart]

the last few days, i have had a good learning curve with a few different designs and types of crankshaft sensors...
I have always liked to try to use what I have on hand, but dang with this old, new sensor, that I had in the back for the last 10+ years, i came to the conclusion, it is time to move on
the ZF GS100502 https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...qMOzs5Xg%3D%3D
came up a few times, in what might work. and a big plus, it comes in an adjustable housing. i had seen this style on quite a few of the aftermarket manufactures, but not know knowing the model. # of the sensor, at the time. i was drawing up a blank on how to search for it. it comes in 2 different lengths, 1" & 2.5". I decided on the 2.5" one, thinking it will go better with the mounting bracket that I am coming up with.

on a side note
I finally figured out which sensor Armorer243 had used on his build, i had googled the ATS624 many times and came up with nothing, but when i googled "Allegro ATS617 " it opened up a whole lot of information.
i was temped to use this and make my own holder, but one ready to go. looked like a better option..

[bgmcl60]

bart do you think the 50mm throttle body will affect your fuel ratio at wide open throttle? it all looks good. i don't beleive you could have bought injector bungs any better than these. i guess this unit doesn't have adaptive memory like the auto pcm. that was a function nobody seen working until it quit. most mechanics would throw on another pcm and reset it and hope it never came back. but even a small vacuum leak would set it to working and add fuel for lean condition or lower pulse width to remove fuel for rich condition. you really don't have to have adaptive memory but with so many things that can go wrong in an auto it keeps it out of the shop longer. thats why most cars today with over 200 thousand miles run as good as a new one.

[Bart]

bart do you think the 50mm throttle body will affect your fuel ratio at wide open throttle? it all looks good. i don't beleive you could have bought injector bungs any better than these. i guess this unit doesn't have adaptive memory like the auto pcm. that was a function nobody seen working until it quit. most mechanics would throw on another pcm and reset it and hope it never came back. but even a small vacuum leak would set it to working and add fuel for lean condition or lower pulse width to remove fuel for rich condition. you really don't have to have adaptive memory but with so many things that can go wrong in an auto it keeps it out of the shop longer. thats why most cars today with over 200 thousand miles run as good as a new one.

the TunerStudio has 3 versions that can be downloaded.
the free one, has just the basic that will get you in the gate, and down the road.
the middle one TunerStudio MS, you end up having to register and purchase it. but there are a lot of things that come with it. along with the VEAnalyze Live - Auto Tune. which when set up, with an O2 sensor. will auto tune your motor as it goes. at least that is what I am understanding from researching it.

http://www.tunerstudio.com/index.php...feature-matrix


as far at the 50mm throttle body. this will be a wait and see thing, i hope that there are a few ways to manipulate the larger throttle body. with the throttle positioning sensor.
and mapping the injectors.
that is one question that i never did ask SDS about. but the smallest throttle body that i noticed on their web page was the in house made 50mm.
if this doesn't work, there are a few different 4-wheeler 34 mm throttle bodies that i could swap it out with. with minimal headache.
there are a lot of different things, in trying to keep track of, on what will work and what will be for my entertainment... with this project.

ps. when i was looking at all the different sizes of throttle bodies, I first looked at some of the 34 mm ones of those china websites. that you could get for 40.00. then as the year went along. I started looking at the lower CC car motors out there. and what they were using. i went with the saturn throttle body, due to that it is used on their 1.8 CC motors. where 084 is 1.38 CC displacment, with a .42 difference, hopefully it will get me into the ball game.

[bgmcl60]

yea that auto tune sounds good. there would be no way to guess at all the different pulse withs it need to run good. where the auto tune you can save as a backup file. sure make life easier.you watch the pulsewidth on a scope you would know what i'm talking about. pulsewidth is how long an injector stays on in ms.

[Bart]

So, I have learned the error of my ways.. with the direction that i was headed down the road with installing the crank sensor and trigger wheel.. lesson learned, just cause it is on the net, doesn't mean it is correct..
first off the picture of the triggerwheel with the tooth numbers, that i put up earlier is backwards for the clockwise rotation for the 084 motor..
and I was all concerned about getting the trigger wheel mounted in a location along with the crankshaft sensor, so it would simplify the timing procedure..... boy I was reading way to much into this.
the biggest trouble that I was running into. was i would read the speeduino wiki file, https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php/Speeduino and things would seem fairly clear... the one thing, I didn't know which was the designated #1 tooth..
then i seen the picture with the tooth numbers that i posted above, the rotation seemed a little out of place to the tooth numbers, but hey, the guy seemed to know what he was talking about....
Well now i have been corrected ,

the crankshaft sensor can be mounted at any degree location.. the trigger wheel also...
the sensor mount needs to be rigid so there is no vibration...
as one of the mentors on the speeduino forum stated..
Seriously. Even knowing the concepts, switching concepts hurts my brain and it's so easy to get them mixed-up. For Speeduino, it can be simplified to this level:

Throw the parts on the engine. Set the crank at top center of cylinder #1. Make a mark on the tooth under the sensor. Rotate the crank until you see the first tooth after the missing tooth gap passes under the sensor. Mark that tooth. How many degrees between the two marks? That is your Trigger Angle setting.

Fire it up and verify exact setting with your timing light. Done.

with this knowledge, now I feel a lot more comfortable in attaching the triggerwheel to the rope pulley, and the bracket for the crank shaft sensor, just became very simple..
gone are the concerns, of thinking that the position of the trigger wheel and sensor needed to be in some random predetermined spot...
when I do get this all together, it may be somewhat close to what I have in the picture, but if it is off, it really doesn't matter. just as long as I

"Set the crank at top center of cylinder #1. Make a mark on the tooth under the sensor. Rotate the crank until you see the first tooth after the missing tooth gap passes under the sensor. Mark that tooth. How many degrees between the two marks? That is your Trigger Angle setting."

[Bart]

THE TOOTH NUMBER LAYOUT IN THE PICTURES BELOW IS IN ERROR, the this is for a counter clockwise rotation... please i had numbered the teeth for a counterclockwise rotation. (where I was copying from a wheel that i found on the net. I wish to leave this part on. to show that sometimes the best of intentions can be the wrong information)

it has been a fun couple of days looking and coming up with a design for the crank sensor mounting plate. for some reason, I had been looking at putting the mount on the left side of the housing. Until I was asked, so where are you going to relocate the oil filter, won't it be in the way? I could always relocate it.
up until now. I had been cutting the template out with a band saw. and finishing it out with a flap disc on a grinder.. but to make this user friendly. I am wanting to cut out a T-slot with a radius. to keep the adjusting simpler.
after reading up and looking at many different forums and trigger assembly instructions, I am finding out that for a 4 cylinder motor. with it at TDC, it is preferred to have the crank sensor at 90 degrees from the missing tooth. this can be placed anywhere on the pulley, you just need to designate the correct trigger angle ATDC when tooth #1 passes the primary sensor. in the settings, the sensor needs to be at the leading edge or the trailing edge of the said tooth. and that is designated in the settings. at least that is how i am understanding it....
https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php/Trigger_Setup
after this is done, then I worry about setting the spark and the dwell settings.
https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php/Spark_Settings


to get this going correctly, I will be using a turn table, on a milling machine to get the correct radius milled out.
I will be turning the radius for a T-slot about 4" 4.5" from the center. in looking at mounting this on the right side of the housing, I would like to tie this to 3 of the cover bolts. there will be 2 holding it to the flat, and 1 on the side.
with the adjustable T-slot. then it will allow me to have a better adjustment capability.
also i turned out a spacer to bolt onto the front of the rope pulley. to help with once the missing tooth wheel is mounted to true it to the pulley. I'm only allowed a 1.5 mm air gap. and also, if the magnets in the pulley prove to give off to much noise. I can attach a trigger wheel to the outside of the pulley.
also, the base bracket will be out of 1/2" aluminum plate. with the stand-off holding the sensor, 1 X 1.5 x 2" block . One of the highlighted things that is stated over many times, the brackets need to be stout, to reduce any if not all vibration.
we will see out this works out...
i have submitted a couple of questions that i have on the speeduino forum, to verify it my thinking is correct. For the correct angles to enter in.
some interesting reading this is from DIYAUTOTUNE it is a megasquirt based, but uses TunerStudio also.
https://www.diyautotune.com/support/...crank-trigger/
https://www.diyautotune.com/support/...r/base-timing/

[Bart]

http://miniairboatassoc.com/forum/sh...ll=1#post36792


Bobby, Tunerstudio has 3 versions that you can choose from. I went and purchased the middle one TunerStudio MS.
they have a free version TunerStudio Lite! that you can download. it does not have the auto tune included. but if you register and purchase the TunerStudio MS. it has a feature included VE Analyze Live- Auto Tune
if you click onto the link below you will be able to see what it supports
http://www.tunerstudio.com/index.php/tuner-studio/tsarticles/119-tunerstudio-30-feature-matrix