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Thread: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

  1. #21
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    You also talk about what injector to use. It's like there saying one fits all which is not the case. If it were they would only make one injector. They told us at class never substitute one model car injector for another unless they were exact same spec. I under stand that you control the on and off time of the injector but that large of injector seems hard to control at idle. When they talk about using the same injector in aircraft engines as a lawn mower engine something is wrong with their thinking. Just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

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  2. #22
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    [QUOTE=bgmcl60;36799]That would confuse anyone. Following what a photo described that was backward for the engine your working on. I didn't notice that until you sait something. Glad you got over that hurdle. What about the advance of 28? Where does that come in?


    the spark advance is covered on an separate page. in the configuration index.. and on that page it needs 4 inputs
    1. spark output mode.
    Spark Output mode - Determines how the ignition pulses will be outputted and is very specific to your ignition wiring. Note that no matter which option is selected here, ignition signals ALWAYS fire in numerical order (ie 1->2->3->4) up to the maximum number of outputs. The firing order of the engine is accounted for in the wiring order

    2 cranking advance angle. (28 degrees for the 084 motor)

    • Cranking advance - The number of absolute degrees (BTDC) that the timing will be set to when cranking. This overrides all other timing advance modifiers during cranking.


    3. spark outputs triggers. (reading which side of the tooth. the leading edge or the trailing edge)

    • Spark output triggers - THIS IS A CRITICAL SETTING!. Selecting the incorrect option here can cause damage to your igniters or coils. Specifies whether the coil will fire when the ignition output from Speeduino goes HIGH or goes LOW. The VAST majority of ignition setups will require this to be set GOING LOW (ie the coil charges/dwells when the signal is high and will fire when that signal goes low). Whilst GOING LOW is required for most ignition setups, there are some configurations that perform the dwell timing on the ignition module and fire the coil only when they receive a HIGH signal from the ECU.

    4. fixed angle (still trying to figure out if this should still be 28 degrees.)

    • Fixed Angle - This is used to lock the ignition timing to a specific angle for testing. Setting this to any value other than 0 will result in that exact angle being used (ie overriding any other settings) at all RPMs/load points, except during cranking (Cranking always uses the above Cranking Advance setting). This setting should be set to 0 for normal operation.




    if you pull up the link below. it guides you through what perimeters are needed to be entered in. still trying to determine what i need to enter in for the Fixed Angle.
    https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php...guration_Index
    https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php/Spark_Settings
    Last edited by Bart; 01-13-2019 at 03:56 PM.

  3. #23
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    [QUOTE=bgmcl60;36800]You also talk about what injector to use. It's like there saying one fits all which is not the case. If it were they would only make one injector. They told us at class never substitute one model car injector for another unless they were exact same spec. I under stand that you control the on and off time of the injector but that large of injector seems hard to control at idle. When they talk about using the same injector in aircraft engines as a lawn mower engine something is wrong with their thinking. Just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

    I understand, and appreciate your thoughts and concerns... that is the last thing most of us want to see is someone fail miserably.

    last summer i had looked at so many web pages, and injector formulas. that it was more confusing, everywhere I looked. somethings the different formulas would back each other up. and then I would look at the size of injectors that manufactures were using in similar CC motors. I forget the location of the web page that I found. but an individual had almost every CC motor with the injector that the manufacturer had recommended. so trying to figure out what to use. for what knowledge that I have & had, would be like trying to find a needle in an haystack.

    the only other option that I knew of was to ask sdsefi.com they had helped Les Smoot with his EFI build 10-15 years ago. and were in the process of helping another person install their system on an 084 motor last summer.
    so i emailed and asked, if they would be willing to let me know what size of injector and model number. that they are recommending, to be used with the 084 motor.
    Ross Farnham did reply. and let me know the size and model that they would use.

    so it is from this information that I choose the injector. first he had just given me the CC size. boy it seemed like you could pull up a couple of hundred different ones. So I asked him, if he would be willing to help me out with a model number..
    if he hadn't have took the time to help me out. I really don't think I would have the confidence to even attempt to choose an injector...
    he also let me know this important information.
    "We could supply a base map which should be close though if we know injector flow rate"

    trust me, at times I feel that I am just digging a great big hole, to fall into. but it seems like every time I come up against an other hurdle /wall. After researching and trying to find the answers, I have been able to find somebody out there, that is willing to help me get answers. ( i just hope that they are the correct ones.)


    and if my memory serves me correctly. If I purchased the SDS product, they could supply an base injector map. but where the 084 motor is not an "high demand" installation, i would be on my own for the most part to figure the mapping out. using the O2 sensor. But that is what most of the aftermarket EFI companies are doing.. "the end user needs to verify and adjust the settings per what the conditions are reading the motor is giving."
    even with the tunerstudio auto tune, there are many that say, it will get you close, but you may want to fine tune it.
    I just remember back in the 90's, when EFI came out big on the snowmachines, they would always run about 10 percent rich...
    and right before I purchased a new one in 09, there was a big problem of them running lean, and burning down. if you ran them to long at the mid throttle range.

    there is a lot for me to learn still, at times I feel, that I still don't even know enough to get into trouble.... and I know there still are some big challenges up ahead on this adventure...

  4. #24
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    Quote Originally Posted by bgmcl60 View Post
    You also talk about what injector to use. It's like there saying one fits all which is not the case. If it were they would only make one injector. They told us at class never substitute one model car injector for another unless they were exact same spec. I under stand that you control the on and off time of the injector but that large of injector seems hard to control at idle. When they talk about using the same injector in aircraft engines as a lawn mower engine something is wrong with their thinking. Just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

    Sent from my SM-G935VC using Tapatalk
    I have had to change out a few injectors over the years, and I follow what you are saying about how can the same electronic injector be used for different applications... with the manufactures ECU boxes, the parameters are non adjustable,

    years ago I was learning about diesel injectors, and rebuilt just a few of them.... the old style would pop off, when they reached a certain pressure, and depending on the application. a person can change the spring, needle and nozzle of any injector to reach your desired goal..

    last night I came across a video, that touches on how these after market kits, are allowing the end user to change out the parameters on electronic fuel injectors, it has answered a few questions that have been in the back of my mind.
    at times I wish that I had more knowledge on this subject. it is a big learning curve for me. and i suspect that I will be ending up with a box or two of things that I really didn't need to get.
    it was a little enlightening to see how you could change the data, to change the injectors from a smaller CC to a 440 CC. to run on the same motor.
    I haven't got to this part yet, to enter in the motor & injector data into the firmware. to see were and if they will work like they should..

    https://youtu.be/bze35R4elqE


    hope that this can answer some questions, and create a few more...

  5. #25
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    bart i see your doing your home work on this project and all i can say is more power to you. you have gone out of your way to answer a lot of my dumb questions. thanks for all of that. i had no idea the speeduino ecu could do all it can like the injector flow and the adaptive memory. when you are an old school mechanic you think you can only do so much but with these units you can do that and much more. again thanks for explaining this. before it seemed impossible to get where you wanted to go but now it is not only possible but very possible.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    Bobby, none of the questions that you have asked are anything but "dumb"...
    most of the mechanics that i ever done was on a i was on an old 55 chevy truck, and a couple years at a vo-tech school studding diesel mech. back in the early 80's
    i loved the old school hot rods...
    and up until now have been somewhat intimidated by what we have now.. rebuilding a motor, no problem. but when you start looking at the electrical side.... that is my weakness..

    the gentle man in the video. has a couple more out. and it really brings it down to earth. yea. there is a lot of homework needed, to learn and try to grasp some of these concepts and how to make this work..
    but with you asking the questions. it really helps me dig in deeper and do a little more homework.
    it is just like the improvements that you have been working on. going in directions that not many others have not thought of...and always trying to improve this motor.
    so by all means keep asking away.
    thanks again for all your input..

  7. #27
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    well it has been a spring with just a few set backs....
    I lost my job back in January, but I was able to get another dispatch. but it took a month to get all the things going, back ground check, and all the other paper work, then it was down to passing a fit for duty test.
    all this time I had been hoping that with my bum knee would, I would still be able to go forward, but that was not the case. I was just fooling myself...
    long story short, I will be a candidate for an replacement knee joint next week, and we will see how the rehab goes....
    there has been just a lot going on in my mind, but if all goes well, I may be able to walk with out any pain, and get full movement back.. at least I am going into this with a positive attitude. so I can keep providing for my family.
    I didn't feel like working on this project, until I had a new job, but that all changed 2 weeks ago. After I had a visit with the orthopedic specialist. he looked at the xray, told me what the problems were, and that I had 2 options, live with it, or get it replaced. and here I thought it would be a little more dramatic than that.
    but now I need something to keep me occupied and focus on the future..
    so back to the drawing board... maybe I can get a lot of this done will I am laid up,
    there have been a few hold ups. but everything is starting to come together,
    a good friend was able to clean up a laptop that was given to me, and it looks like it will be good enough to run the speeduino programs, I got it back this week, I kind of was sitting dead in the water with out it.
    in the mean time, I have acquired and purchased all of the wiring and hardware needed for this.
    at the moment it is still needs a little work to get it together.
    I had an old wiring harness off a snowmachine. that had a 34 pin JAE water proof female connector with wires, so i stripped it down and just need to lay everything down, and start connecting.
    I was able to get the male connector off of Mouser.com among other things that will come in handy, my hope is to get this all cleaned up and organized. but I thought I would show kind of the mess that it looks like at the moment. I thought about just starting all from scratch,
    I am thinking of mounting the ECU in the panel that will be near my right arm, so maybe I will need 3 feet of loom, to reach from the ECU to the motor. don't want to make it to short, but not to long either.
    the funest part coming up will be to match 27 connections from the 40 pin board to the 34 pin JAE connectors. and having everything wired correctly.
    so now it is time to finish up the loom,
    on the diagram below, I have listed what pins that I will be needing, (there is a pin #35 for boost. for those that may put a turbo. ( I haven't included that in yet...))
    the Hall effect sensor, was kind of fun to figure out. I had just a few 2 wire ones, and one 3 wire one. but the mounting just wasn't happening. I had purchased some sensors to make my own, that can be fairly simple. but then I stumbled across a 3 wire setup with a threaded barrel. that I was able to get from Mouser.com for 32 bucks. this was the route, that i went, down the road I will make up the ones that i purchased all the pieces for, but that will be another day.
    with this kit, with this being only a 4 cylinder motor. there is the option, with the injectors and the spark, that I could double them up and use only 2 ignition & 2 injector pins. using the wasted spark, and with out a camshaft sensor, all the injectors if I understand correctly are batch fired, so there are just a couple of different options, to choose from.

    it has been nice to have the smaller 042 motor close by, to do a lot of the fitment for the crank sensor and other things, still need to make a block off plate for when I remove the magneto.
    in the wiring diagram, the coil pack that is shown, will not work with this set up....I will be using the LS7 coil pack, I included it, because it takes a lot of the guess work out and keeps it kind of simple.. I wish that I had the knowledge to make my own diagram with using the parts that I have put together....
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    Last edited by Bart; 03-14-2019 at 03:53 AM.

  8. #28
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    it is slowly coming together. I have been having fun, with getting all the parts and pieces, and then there is the proverbial change order, that comes into the equation. My goal is to get the wire loom and control panel almost 100 percent completed. and it is a time thing. I am always coming up with some little part or piece that is needing to be ordered.
    But now all is needed is a couple small things to finish tying together. " the key switch, relays, wideband O2 sensor, just to name a few,".
    but it is looking closer to powering up the speeduino board and start entering in all the information for the trigger angle, injectors, and the sensors being used.
    with this being a simple design, I have 9 spare wires coming out of the loom, that might/can be used in the future. if I want to, i will be able to include an oil pressure & temp. it could be nice to have an auto shut down if the oil pressure gets to low.
    for the most part there has been a lot of homework, a case in point was,,,,,
    I had wired up the injectors, Bosch from what I have found out started designating 1 pin for the 12 volt supply, and #2 pin for the ground to the ECU. All the other manufactures could care less, how the polarity is ran through the injector, but for some reason Bosch wants the current to flow a certain way, though the injector.
    so yesterday I found an old injector wiring harness form a snowmachine, "it had weather proof boots on it, big score." and it was wired opposite of what I had done, needless to say, it was right and what i had done earlier has been discarded..
    that is been a good part of this journey. there is a lot to learn and trying to find the correct information. can be just a little frustrating at times. But slowly things are starting to take shape.
    the other change was a longer box for the speeduino ECU. along with some water proof connectors. it is in the back of my mind, where i don't have a shed/lean-to to park this under, "yet". I really don't want the brain to be out in the "weather", there is some weather proof coating that can be applied to the mother board, and that may happen.
    Anyway, I am starting to see it coming together.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    getting things checked off little by little, it has been a good week, made more forward progress, with only a couple of steps back...
    the best part was while waiting for the redrive. "still need to get with my friend for a few hours and get the final dimensions finalized"....
    I installed the flywheel shroud and flywheel off of one of the 2A042 motors, "so I could set the motor onto a bench and keep it somewhat secure."onto my 084, a few years ago I had put a key way & timing marks on the front pulley so i could check /verify my timing. well after verifying with the stock flywheel markings, I had it dead on. it was nice to see that.
    this made it just a little simpler to find out the trigger angle that I need to enter into the speeduino data base.
    I had some fun, figuring out how to set up the volt meter to read my crank sensor when it reads the trigger tooth wheel.
    I knew that I needed to supply the sensor with 5 volts. to power it up.
    but how to connect the volt meter to which wires, there is not much directions. looked at a few utube videos on how others had check the 3 wire hall sensors. for some guidance. and found out that what they did, was not working for the sensor that I purchase.
    which left me wondering if I had purchase a bum sensor.... I could read resistance between the ground and the signal out wires, but I could not get any readings from the sensor when turning the trigger tooth past it, or even passing it by pieces of metal.... I was getting kind of bummed out to say the least...
    on the videos, they were measuring the resistance between the ground wire and the signal out wire..
    but as luck would have it... I had an other volt meter and just for grins and giggles, I tried measuring the voltage between the 5 volt infeed and the signal out wire. and grounded the ground to the battery. and it worked.
    I was getting 0 volts when the trigger was on the low, and 5 volts on the high side. so the sensor does work and all is good.
    finding the trigger angle was simple from here, I set the motor to TDC, placed the degree wheel with a magnet onto the front pulley, then rotated the motor clockwise until the leading edge of the #1 tooth changed the voltage on the meter. and that is my trigger angle, this was so simple...
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  10. #30
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    I have finally received all the parts and pieces to put the case together. i had ordered a 12 inch USB cable to go inside the box, but they sent another 22 in. one. so there is a little loop that I don't care for.
    but I like having weather proof plugs on it. so if need be I can always remove the case if needed.
    next project is to start installing all the hardware onto the motor, still trying to get with my friend to anodize all the parts and pieces,

    picked up a Saturn starter motor, and it looks like I need to enlarge the mounting holes just a little so it will match up to the bell housing. but others in this forum, have used the same model of starter, so i will keep my fingers crossed that it will work.

    another small set back, when installing the sensors into the firmware, I had just been planning on using a 18mm spark plug J type thermocouple, but upon some research, to use a thermocouple I would need to add a small board and change some code in the firmware.
    A simpler fix is to purchase a NTC themistor, which I can just wire in and enter in 3 resistance settings at different temperatures into the firmware.
    this style will read up to 300 Celsius or 550 degrees, where the head temps can read 450 degrees and some have had them go as high as 500, I am thinking of just epoxying it to the cylinder head near the spark plug, location yet to be decided
    I am more curious, to see what the temps will be when running EFI and using a wideband O2 sensor to keep the air fuel ratio correct.
    https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/1...or-1157013.pdf
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  11. #31
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    Is the case itself waterproof ??? I'm wondering..Even if the case is waterproof is there a chance for humidity/moisture to still affect the board ?? I know you've touched on some type of potting material for the mother board but would doing that render the board "untouchable" in regards to adjustments or repairs ??Would there even be a need for access to the board ??? What about some type of desiccant inside the box ?? Sorry for all the questions..

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  12. #32
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky View Post
    Is the case itself waterproof ??? I'm wondering..Even if the case is waterproof is there a chance for humidity/moisture to still affect the board ?? I know you've touched on some type of potting material for the mother board but would doing that render the board "untouchable" in regards to adjustments or repairs ??Would there even be a need for access to the board ??? What about some type of desiccant inside the box ?? Sorry for all the questions..
    No problem about the questions. I have been thinking about this a lot. when I think of waterproof, I think of the ATV & snowmobile ECU boxes. now those are waterproof.. the box below came with the wire harness that I am using.

    there are just a few termination pins that would be good to not have covered up.
    some have used a silicon spray. another idea would be a brushed on conformal coating like in the link below
    https://www.mgchemicals.com/products...rmal-coatings/
    I really wouldn't use the spray-on conformal coating. "it would be very tedious to mask off all the pins."
    and the box that I have is not water proof. there is a lid that slides in 2 grooves along the top. and the 2 end plates.
    with the heavy humidity, I am almost afraid to use silicon and seal the box up 100%, due to condensate issues. I am assuming the board will put off a little heat, to dissipate.
    there have been some on the forums that have their box under the seat in the car. and have stated that even though there has been water, soda, dirt, and other things their speeduino board still is working.
    I am almost to the point. to have the speeduino case in an protected, breathable secondary shelter.
    there is an need to be able to access the USB port. with the rapid growth, and changes there is usually a firmware update every 3 months. right now they are working on an anti-knock board. among other things. that will be for sale before to long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slh7DsR7S3U
    so this will always be a work in progress. and as always there is always so much that I am learning right now it is kind of fun going over all the parameters that i need to enter in. and double checking that I have them right. it will probably scare the heck out of me, when i first turn the key and it starts right up. but that is what I am shooting for.
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  13. #33
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    made a little more headway this week, I had been putting off making a blank for the magneto & the fuel pump. finally realized that there was a template or pattern, if I just used the old gasket. that made life pretty simple....
    then one of the last big hurdles was to anodize everything before the installation.... I was going to mix it up with blue intake tubes, but for some reason when I put the tubes in the blue dye, it would not take to the aluminum. so the final color ended up being all red. but for me it just keeps things from oxidizing and should last just a while...
    one side note with the anodizing, I found out last time that the battery acid will turn the cast to a olive green color. and the anodize will not stick to it. but as I look at some of the welds. they acted more like the cast. and turned the same green color... kind of interesting, I was not expecting that...
    started putting the motor together now. hind site is always catching me. after putting the injectors on,I really don't like the thread bung going out the top. My plan was to have feed each injector with a separate line, feeding from a junction block. but I may pick up some 1/4" barbed T's and run them series, just looking at how to keep it somewhat clean looking.
    .maybe if I was using the AN style fittings. it would keep the height down to a degree. if when I make some more. I am thinking of having the threads or port at a 90 degrees to the injector. and as always when welding the bungs on the intake tubes, my main concern was to be able to access the 1/4" intake bolts. but maybe next winter I will make another set, and improve on what I am learning, the first prototype is always the funnest...
    just a few more things, of the never ending list, to do now.
    1 install wire harness.
    2 install the starter
    3 finish the exhaust,build supports so the exhaust bolts are not carrying the weight...
    4 i would say fuel tank install, but that is a plug and play.
    5 order more fuel injection rated fuel line....
    6 build the head temp thermisters, order should be here tomorrow.
    7 turn key and hopefully smile...
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  14. #34
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    another small set back, when installing the sensors into the firmware, I had just been planning on using a 18mm spark plug J type thermocouple, but upon some research, to use a thermocouple I would need to add a small board and change some code in the firmware.
    A simpler fix is to purchase a NTC themistor, which I can just wire in and enter in 3 resistance settings at different temperatures into the firmware.
    this style will read up to 300 Celsius or 550 degrees, where the head temps can read 450 degrees and some have had them go as high as 500, I am thinking of just epoxying it to the cylinder head near the spark plug, location yet to be decided
    I am more curious, to see what the temps will be when running EFI and using a wideband O2 sensor to keep the air fuel ratio correct.
    https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/1...or-1157013.pdf
    [/QUOTE]

    the first picture is of the board that I would needed to have added, down the road, it might have been simpler. and I may get someone to help me understand how to configure it into the system. But for the time being.. I went the route simplest to me.

    the themistors came in the other day, ordered 5 of them just in case I needed some spares...at 2.56 a pop. a person pays more in shipping than what is being purchased sometimes...
    so first off I found the web page http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~eas199/B/ho...ermistorProbe/ and it made it look pretty simple
    I just needed a good magnifying glass to see what I was doing....
    the time that I spent more time thinking about was were to place or install it on the cylinder head. the main concern is that I really didn't have a good place to install near the spark plug, to where the wires would not get damaged. and thinking about it. all this thermistor will be doing is letting the brain know that the motor is warmed up, so it will step back the high idle...
    with this in mind, and with 3 different options that I seen for installing a themistor on an air cooled motor,
    A. drill a small hole in the case and epoxy it to the motor
    B. make a tab and bolt it to one of the fins on the cylinder
    C. I chose to drill a 1/8" NPT threaded hole just below the valve cover. With the thermistor, JB welded inside the 1/8" brass fitting. I don't need to worry about the wires rubbing against any of the fins, also with the spring next to the fitting, it should keep the wires from breaking. and once the motor is going, I can adjust the step down idle valve to go with the temp the thermistor is getting.
    (on a side note, I still will be using the spark plug thermocouples and just have them going to 2 gauges on the dash...)
    to set this up in the firmware I will enter in the Bias Resistor Value on one line, then in a graph three different temps with the measured resistance is entered. This will give the firmware a value to go by when the resistance is being read.
    so the next project is to get the values that I am needing.
    figure one reading in the freezer, another around 150, and the last one at 300 degrees.
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    Last edited by Bart; 05-22-2019 at 06:44 PM.

  15. #35
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    I was talking with a friend last night about the thermistor that was made, and he brought up a good point about thermal conductivity. of the bonding agents, I know from past experience with pryrometers, it depends on what material or thermocouple is used on how fast the readings will be. and it goes a lot by the price.
    below is the heat transfer value in a few items that could be used
    I used JB weld as the bonding agent, where it can take temperatures up to 550 degrees. and I had it on hand.
    as I look around I might find a better high heat bonding agent. that is cost effective to purchase, and even an aluminum 1/8" NPT pipe plug. so I could have a better transfer of the heat
    also there are a couple of links, if one wants to read.
    http://www.giangrandi.ch/electronics/ntc/ntc.shtml
    https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws...ermistors.html

    Aluminum's value is 225.94 W/mK
    mild steel or JB Weld at 41.84W/mK
    Silver OR Arctic Silver Epoxy at 426.77 W/mK
    copper or yellow brass at 111 W/mK

  16. #36
    Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    checked off another small but needed project today, a while back I had ordered a used Innovate LC-1 wideband set up off Ebay. when it showed up, it was missing a 5/16-28 TPI nut to hold the reset button in place, kind of a bummer deal. with 3 choices, find a new button, buy a tap, or thread one on the lathe.
    the other thing I didn't like about it was all the loose wires. So I purchased a small box to clean it up,
    Also tried my first attempt at an internal threads, and small ones at that, it was kind of nice, the first owner had made just a few custom internal threading tools, that had been sitting idle for over 50 years... they sure came in handy...
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  17. #37

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    WOW dang nice work.....

  18. #38
    Member Bart's Avatar
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    Dec 2015
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    Valdez, Alaska
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    455

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    changed up the fuel delivery system, really didn't like how the brass hose barbs, and rubber tubing was looking. it would have worked, but it just wasn't looking that clean, decided to run 1/4" ss tube to the injectors, and will be using 3/8" tubing for the supply and return lines.
    a lot of hind sight in looking at how the injector placement, isn't letting a person keep things uniform, but, live and learn...
    it is getting closer. if I could just keep for getting sidetracked.....
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