Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 61 to 75 of 75

Thread: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

  1. #61
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Susquehanna river, Dauphin, Pa
    Posts
    1,288

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    Hi Bobby good to see you here...I must have guessed correctly, I used the number 3 cylinder for the CHT gauge figuring it would be the hottest {rear jug behind the oil filter}.....The whole header looks extremely hot to me in that pic...

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  2. #62
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    522

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    well the motor has been sitting for a while. since I changed out the head on cylinder #2, when I had started it up, after changing out the head. It just was running kind of weird, like even though the throttle was closed, the map or VE sheet. was showing that there was not a lot of vacuum. kind of like the throttle was set to wide open. and was running real rich. I was scratching my head trying to figure out what I did???
    so I took all the gaskets off and resealed them. and let them set for a while. I had just checked the compression just before I swapped out the head. so I thought all was good...and that was where I went wrong....
    started it up tonight, just to see if it was doing any different, and noticed that cylinder #4 was the cold one now.

    did a compression test on #4, and there was none.. took off the head and found that the valve seat on the exhaust valve was loose and holding the valve open.
    it was kind of interesting to see all the fuel, that was sitting in the cylinder.

    another side note, there has been a ticking sound, coming from someplace on the motor. as I was turning it over by hand, you could feel it catching real good, it makes a person start to wonder as what else might be going wrong. as I looked closer I finally noticed a bolt that was coming loose. that was holding the flywheel housing on. it is always the little things that can keep a person guessing.
    I will put it all back tomorrow. and see what else I can find???
    Attached Images Attached Images      

  3. #63
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Susquehanna river, Dauphin, Pa
    Posts
    1,288

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    Ouch...It seems this issue is the biggest problem with the 084...I was wondering about how the heads were going to take the heat...Imagine how hot those valves were to have those red headers glowing like that...

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  4. #64
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    522

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky View Post
    Ouch...It seems this issue is the biggest problem with the 084...I was wondering about how the heads were going to take the heat...Imagine how hot those valves were to have those red headers glowing like that...
    you are correct on that. anyway with the motor I picked up. a few years back when I started it up, with the stock mag, & carb, I had noticed the # 2 cylinder pipe getting red. and for the few hours that I have ran it this summer, and chasing my tail. with the few odd ball things that have been dealing with, after starting it up this summer, a loose valve seat might have been the problem....
    just before this happened, I had pulled off both heads, but never removed the valves....
    and tried and old trick that I was shown many years ago to see if the valves had a good seat.
    "which was after grinding the valve seat, and resembling the valves to the head, you could put enough gas to cover the valves and see if anything seeped through." I had just tried this 2 days before and all looked good..


    but I will be getting another head to replace both heads on cylinders 2 & 4.they just seem to be the problem children...

    another fun little fact, so I put a spare head on cylinder 4, that had all the gas sitting in it, checked the compression. and there was none. Ended up taking the cylinder off just to look at the rings, they looked good. put it all back together and still no compression....
    took a little oil and squirted it into the spark plug hole hole, and presto we had compression.
    started it up and cylinders 1, 3, & 4 were running good, and # 2 went cold at a max temp of 125. ( but I had put the original head back on. so where I was thinking I may have had a bad injector,,, maybe the heads on 2 & 4 have been giving my the problem all along. it was a used motor and I never did hear any history on it before purchase.
    anyway, at least I have a couple of more heads I can take off my other 2A042 motor, and see if this will make a difference.
    like someone had stated, if this was simple everyone would be doing it...
    Last edited by Bart; 08-23-2019 at 11:00 PM.

  5. #65
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    522

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    it has been a little bit that I have posted anything on this project,
    so I got the motor rebuilt. and it runs. but I have thought over a few items, Bobby mentioned at one time that the 50mm throttle body might give me some problems, well when I would crack it open to about 1/4 throttle the rpms would be pegged. so this fall I started looking around at some different options.
    I have always seen the Chinese ones show up on some web pages. but good luck finding the wire pig tails for the TPS & idle valve...
    so I started looking at 4 wheelers. I found a 36mm throttle body off a Polaris 325 motor. so I picked up the throttle body, the adapter that connects it to the motor, the TPS & pigtail, a idle valve & pigtail, & last a 8' cable that was used in the Razors. which is made for a foot throttle.
    that 8 foot cable, was what really sold it, I had been having a lot of fun fabing up throttle cables, with this I have the length, just need to connect it to the foot peddle.
    I turned out the adapter plates. to mount this to the already modified intake spider. and set a groove for an o-ring between it and the back plate. to keep it sealed.

    as for wiring in the new TPS, the speeduino has a pretty simple explanation on how to determine which of the 3 wires are signal, pos, & neg. by using a ohm meter.
    and wiring the Idle control valve is the standard 4 wire pigtail
    all that is left now is to wire in the pigtails to my harness, sinc the new TPS to the speeduino, and do a little mod on my foot peddle.

    the insert I kept it at 1.15" long and throat is 33.5mm or 1.31" I hope that this will make the motor run a lot smoother.
    I know it is still a little larger than the stock 29mm carb, and the 31mm VW throttle bodies that so many are using at the moment. Time will tell.
    i guess I better go out and put it on the motor sometime...

    here is what I put down in my notes for the TPS wiring.

    With the tps from the polaris ace 325 the 3 wires coming off it are brown , red, & black
    Brown & red have 4.5 ohms through out the whole range
    Black will be the signal
    Brown & black have 4.5 ohms at idle = the power or positive
    Brown then is the power or positive
    Red and black have .66 ohms at idle this = the negative or ground wire..




    The TPS functions by sending an analog variable voltage signal to Speeduino in order to report the current position of the throttle. It is typically supplied with V+ of 5V and ground (GND, signal ground, or signal return), routing through an internal potentiometer to output a low voltage at low throttle opening, and a rising voltage with greater throttle opening.
    If using a TPS with unknown connections; it is recommended to test the TPS with an ohm meter in order to determine the connection of each pin without risking damage by applying sensor power randomly. This can be accomplished on the bench or with the engine off and TPS disconnected:

    • Assign a letter to each pin.
    • Attach the ohm meter to two pins, and operate the throttle from closed (idle) to wide-open (WOT), recording the results.
    • Find the pair of pins where the resistance does not change significantly from idle to WOT. These are your two power pins.
    • The remaining pin is your Signal pin.
    • In order to determine which power pin is V+ and which is GND, test ohms between the Signal pin and one power pin.
    • In idle position; if ohms are low that power pin is GND. If ohms are high that power pin is V+.


    From <https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php...e_requirements
    Attached Images Attached Images       

  6. #66
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    522

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    so I finally went out and put the throttle body on, and guess what... it fit like is was made for it. so many times, when things are changed mid stream. There is a lot of modifying to make it fit..
    as you might see also, there is an alternator in the pictures now. I got tired of draining the battery so often. it is a 3 wire marine grade 68 amp one. the price was right for 30.00. to wire it up. there are 2 posts on the back. One to the battery, and the other one gets power from the key when it is in the on position to excite it.
    To adjust the tension, a tie rod was shortened from one of my snowmachines that was laying around.

    if this doesn't work, I did also find another single wire marine grade 68 amp one, I just need to mod the lower mounting bracket.
    I don't think I will ever need to use all the amps. but it was cheaper than the single wire mini 30 amp alternators that I have came across.
    I picked up a 6 ribbed 36" long micro-v belt. and thinking it should do fine with the rope pulley on the other end....
    that is an undersized pulley on the alternator. figured where the rpms should never get above 3600, a smaller dia. pulley should be the way to go..

    also a new voltage regulator, was picked up for the stator mode that I did just a few years ago. I still am wanting to know how that story will end....It is a simple wiring also the two yellow red wires connect to the stator, red to battery, brown to ground,
    so for the most part, all that is left is start bending some tin. and get this shroud done.
    and see what this will do. I am almost thinking of lifting the motor up about 3 to 4 inches on the stand, or what I need to do is fab up a test stand like Les Smoot had in his video.
    If I had my redrive finished up. then that would be the last of the modifying... I don't know if it ever ends....
    Attached Images Attached Images       
    Last edited by Bart; 12-15-2019 at 03:14 AM.

  7. #67
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Susquehanna river, Dauphin, Pa
    Posts
    1,288

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    That's great news Bart, I'm interested in seeing how the range of motion plays out with the new throttle body...I'm betting it will have a smooth transition now from idle to full throttle... I've seen others add the alternator for those high amp draws and the chevy style "one wire" with the built in regulator is the easiest way to add one.. I wonder how many hp it uses ?? I'm betting not much considering you'll probably never have the need to pull down that many amps..

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  8. #68
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    522

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky View Post
    That's great news Bart, I'm interested in seeing how the range of motion plays out with the new throttle body...I'm betting it will have a smooth transition now from idle to full throttle... I've seen others add the alternator for those high amp draws and the chevy style "one wire" with the built in regulator is the easiest way to add one.. I wonder how many hp it uses ?? I'm betting not much considering you'll probably never have the need to pull down that many amps..
    From what I have read, a simple ratio is 1hp to 20 amps drawn. I forget what I figured in for total amps needed for this efi system, the biggest draw is the fuel pump. if I remember is around 6 amps. I just remember last summer with the old battery, after about 10 minutes of running, the ECU would start acting up, due to low voltage...so I figure the charging system needed addressed. I seem to remember, in the Les Smoot's video. that he still used the factory stator, but He only was running the fuel injection part.
    If the stator mod works It might be enough. at 250 watts output. just don't know how much would be left for lights and other accessories. the nice thing is the LED lighting has improved over the last five years, and it keeps getting better. with an reduced amp draw,
    When I put in the numbers in a Amp to wattage calculator 68 amps at 12 volts can produce 816 watts.
    then compared to a 30 amp alternator that produces a max 360 watts.
    I am hopping that in a few when i finish fabbing up the shroud. my main concern is to keep the heads cool where I don't have a big fan on the back of the motor yet.
    and if my little stator mod can produce enough amps for the system. that will really clean up the motor.....
    Last edited by Bart; 12-15-2019 at 02:05 PM.

  9. #69
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    522

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    question, does anyone know, on a efi system, does the intake air sensor need to before the throttle body, or can i put it after??
    with this new set up. I made a plug for where the stock injector went. I circled it in red.
    looking at it now. to me it looks like a great location????
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  10. #70
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    jacksonville fl
    Posts
    297

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    It could go there but might heat soak and give the wrong reading and mess up your afr.
    4a084
    Arrow belt drive
    marty bray 116 mini pro
    solex 32/36
    weber 32/36
    solex 34 pict 3
    weber 34 ich
    Razor x 3 blade

  11. #71
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    jacksonville fl
    Posts
    297

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    If its attached to the rubber boot it would be ok.
    4a084
    Arrow belt drive
    marty bray 116 mini pro
    solex 32/36
    weber 32/36
    solex 34 pict 3
    weber 34 ich
    Razor x 3 blade

  12. #72
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    522

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky View Post
    That's great news Bart, I'm interested in seeing how the range of motion plays out with the new throttle body...I'm betting it will have a smooth transition now from idle to full throttle... I've seen others add the alternator for those high amp draws and the chevy style "one wire" with the built in regulator is the easiest way to add one.. I wonder how many hp it uses ?? I'm betting not much considering you'll probably never have the need to pull down that many amps..
    that is a good question, about how many amp to one HP. From most of the places I have looked. Most of them are stating the an alternator requires 1 HP for every 25 amps generated. So if I ever needed all 66 amps. It would be using almost 3 HP.
    my thoughts on amp usage for this motor should be around max of 20 amps. the main draws should be the fuel pump 6 amps, & 4 injectors & coils another 10 amps.
    I am thinking of getting one of those amp draw gauges just to see what my total amp usage with this setup is going to be for sure... but from the first glance, it will be taking almost 1 HP to run this fuel & ignition setup.
    oh the things I think about on a cold winter night....



  13. #73
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    522

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    for the last little while, looking at the intake, it just wan't looking that great anymore with the smaller throttle body, so going through my stash of parts and pieces, I wanted to see if a stock intake would work.. and It really cleaned up the look,
    I am starting to get quite a selection of parts and pieces that didn't make the cut...

    now with it lower. finishing up the shroud will look a lot cleaner also.. I am starting to get excited. I can almost see the start date.
    and on a other good note, I installed a belt tensioner bolt. and put a little power to the starter. it lined up great, and the motor cranks over Happy day....

    ps. I did take time to clean up the inside of the intake, so there will be some awesome air flow...
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  14. #74
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Susquehanna river, Dauphin, Pa
    Posts
    1,288

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    Nice !! That intake sure does clean up the look...And just might give a better flow than the other set up...I'm excited for you too....

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  15. #75
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    522

    Re: Efi retrofit for the 084 motor

    so now that I am back to a stock intake, the stud that supports it, is looking in bad condition. if it could talk, I could only imagine the stories it would tell. needless to say it would only thread in a couple of turns..due to it being bent. so a new one showed up. I kept the same threads 1/4-20 on the bottom and 1/4-28 on the top,

    what really got me thinking about going back to a stock, but cleaned up intake, was looking at the EFI 084 motor that is in the airplane, he just fitted a tpi to the stock carb... don't know if he cleaned up the intake joint or not.
    and you are right Corky, it does look a lot better. but it was still fun making the other one... I learned a few things...

    in looking at the last picture, I may stop by the hardware store and pick up some faucet rubber washers to sandwich the intake bracket. may not need it. but it is always the little things..
    Attached Images Attached Images    

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •