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Thread: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

  1. #21
    Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    looks like you are having fun.
    I have been reading up on injector sizes, and up until now the only information that i had was from SDS, and they mentioned that the smallest injector they sell is the 300cc/min

    "Our system is batch fired so no need to time the injector open timing to
    the piston position.

    If we supplied injectors, they'd be 300cc/min. which is the smallest we
    stock and the same size we use on a similar displacement Rotax 912 engine."
    the displacement for the rotax 912 is 82.6cu.in. /1352cc's

    i have been plugging the 084 engine specs into a couple of different sights that i have found on the web, and i am getting size close to what you are going with, and if i plug in only 1 injector i am getting close to what SDS recommends,
    But when i look at the SDS web page they have 4 ea. injectors. http://www.sdsefi.com/rotax.htm

    anyway i am just trying to understand the math behind all of this, and at the moment, i see i know enough to only get in trouble.

    would you be willing to share some insights of what your opinion might be, where the injector calculators are going with around 90cc/min, and where this company is recommending a much larger injector?
    the one given, is that the Rotax 912 has about twice the HP. but up until now i was just thinking all i would need to do, was lower the mapping values.
    thanks



  2. #22
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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Quote Originally Posted by Bart View Post
    looks like you are having fun.
    I have been reading up on injector sizes, and up until now the only information that i had was from SDS, and they mentioned that the smallest injector they sell is the 300cc/min

    "Our system is batch fired so no need to time the injector open timing to
    the piston position.

    If we supplied injectors, they'd be 300cc/min. which is the smallest we
    stock and the same size we use on a similar displacement Rotax 912 engine."
    the displacement for the rotax 912 is 82.6cu.in. /1352cc's

    i have been plugging the 084 engine specs into a couple of different sights that i have found on the web, and i am getting size close to what you are going with, and if i plug in only 1 injector i am getting close to what SDS recommends,
    But when i look at the SDS web page they have 4 ea. injectors. http://www.sdsefi.com/rotax.htm

    anyway i am just trying to understand the math behind all of this, and at the moment, i see i know enough to only get in trouble.

    would you be willing to share some insights of what your opinion might be, where the injector calculators are going with around 90cc/min, and where this company is recommending a much larger injector?
    the one given, is that the Rotax 912 has about twice the HP. but up until now i was just thinking all i would need to do, was lower the mapping values.
    thanks

    Weird that they say 300 cc's is the smallest. By my figuring those would be waaaay too large.

    I used excel to figure out the volume of air through the 84 cubic inch displacement at various RPM's. From there I calculated the weight of air and the resultant mass of air through the engine per minute. I then also calculated the mass of fuel contained in a cubic centimeter and applied that at various air:fuel ratios from 11.5:1 - 14:1.

    Injectors have a couple design rules. They shouldn't be on more than 80% of the time or failure is common. They also have a minimum time they can be on, typically no less than 1.5 milliseconds. If the injectors are too large they will try to open and close in less than the minimum time leading to sputters and drips instead of a fine wide spray. Too small and they will always be on and causing them to overheat and fail.

    By my calculation, the minimum pulse of 90cc injectors in this engine at idle would be 2.2msec using two squirts per cycle using 1 injector per cylinder. If I used 1 or 2 larger injectors in the throttle body it would not be splitting hairs, but that leaves the fuel the ability to drop out of suspension and other issues already plaguing these long thin-walled intake pipes.

    I think the 90cc injectors would work. Plus the ones I find from China have hose barbs built in which means no need to fab a fuel rail.

  3. #23
    Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    I received an answer from SDS today, why they go with the 300cc/min injectors. I was very curious as to what it might be, for they have been selling an EFI conversion kits for quite some time, and from what i have read, they all seem to be working.
    so below is the questions i asked, and the response received.

    Howard, Bart wrote:
    > It has been a couple of years since this email. But I still am on the slow track of looking at the EFI conversion. I have a question about determining the injector sizing, below you have stated that the 300cc/min is recommended for the rotax 912 engine,
    > But when I plug these numbers in a injector calculator on the web.
    > It is recommending a 148cc/min injector, for the rotax 912 engine.
    > Up until now I was just assuming that I would use the injectors that you recommended (the 300cc/min) injectors, and just have to change the mapping values accordingly.
    >
    > If this was a carburetor question. I could understand most everything, but with injectors, I still don't even know enough to get into trouble. "yet"
    > I just see 3 very different sizes
    > Your recommendation at 300cc/min that you use on the rotax. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2...CLJ0WkOXiE9o&e= this looks like a real sweet setup. And if it didn't work. you wouldn't be able to sell it. so what gives that you are able to use such a higher cc injector that what any of the calculators recommend.
    >
    > In the attachments is an average of what I have found from a few different injector calculator web pages.
    > Thanks again for your time, to help me understand how this all works.
    > Bart




    A 148cc injector would be marginal on a 100hp engine while keeping
    sustained duty cycle below 80%. The 300 is larger than it needs to be
    for max power but we have other concerns such as cold start where small
    injectors are unable to deliver enough fuel in some cases.

    The 300cc injectors have been proven to work well on engine with
    cylinders in the 300 to 550cc range. The ECU has no problem triggering
    injectors down to 2 milliseconds for a smooth idle and everything runs
    cooler with a shorter pulse width in cruise. We do similar things with
    Lycoming engines. These use 46lb. injectors which are not need for the
    hp they produce but are required for good cold starting with such large
    cylinders.

    I have a another customer currently installing our EFI on a 084.
    Hopefully that will be running sometime in June.

    i know that the 300cc/min injectors seem very large, compared to what the readings that you and I am finding from these web pages with the injector calculator.
    but they claim that they have had good success with motors of this size.
    and as i learn more about all the operating parameters needed for the correct injector, that will work for the 084 motor.
    I would like to learn more about the cold starting parameters and needs on the kit that you are putting together.


    the other night I was thinking about back in my youth I rebuilt lots of carbs and was always tinkering on quite a few cars and trucks. even went to a diesel mechanic school for a year or so. but in all this time, i never have taken the time to learn about EFI. and how it really operates.
    but i see that is going to change. i really appreciate that you have started this topic, for now it is forcing me to do some homework. and maybe I will learn something. I am kind of excited, about trying to build something along the lines of what you are doing. it may not be this summer, but i do find myself looking for parts and pieces like what you are doing. and getting something going when things slow down next fall.

    i just need to finish up some of the projects that i have at the moment. then i can start trying to catch up to where you are at.
    so please keep keep posting, i enjoy seeing the pictures of how this project unfolds.
    Last edited by Bart; 05-13-2018 at 09:08 PM.

  4. #24
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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    i know that the 300cc/min injectors seem very large, compared to what the readings that you and I am finding from these web pages with the injector calculator.
    but they claim that they have had good success with motors of this size.
    and as i learn more about all the operating parameters needed for the correct injector, that will work for the 084 motor.
    I would like to learn more about the cold starting parameters and needs on the kit that you are putting together.
    [/QUOTE]

    The 300cc injectors seem to be huge to me too. And 2ms seems awfully short on the idle end, especially if you are in a higher altitude with less air volume, 2ms may even be too rich in these conditions. For the aircraft guys, I know they would be running pretty rich. In looking at fuel injector applications, I have noticed a lot of 14lb injectors on 1200CC motorcycles, 1400CC cars, and the like. Seems as though 14lb injectors would be plenty large, especially since those applications run well over the amount of horsepower we do, and in cold weather.

    A bit more work done in the last couple days. I cut the final 4" trigger wheel for the crankshaft out of 12L14. It's a 36-1, .375 thickness, each tooth and valley is .174". For some reason I forgot how monotonous broaching on the lathe can be and reached the realization that I could have had one CNC'd for $15 plus shipping vs. 7 hours of broaching.

    I am using an ATS624 sensor which is a hall effect-type which does not need a magnet, only a ferrous metal for the trigger wheel. In my stupidity I potted my last one with epoxy and am unable to get it out. So I have to wait for a couple new ones to show up. At $8.25 they aren't horribly expensive, but I hate waiting.

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    I am contemplating building two versions of board, one for ignition replacement only, another with ignition and fuel injection. Or just not populating the ignition-only boards with the EFI components.... Either way, the boards are coming along. Still kicking around abandoning the Toyota coils in favor of the GM LS2 coils for ease of mounting.

  5. #25
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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Your lathe setup, looks sweet. Some day my little one is just going to have to grow up.
    I wish that I some useful information or insight to help you out more. I hadn't thought about using the trigger wheel. And that broaching does take time.
    I have been visiting with my son that is going into one of the instrumentation fields, and maybe with his help I might have half a chance to to accomplish what you are doing. You just make it look so simple.

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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Quote Originally Posted by Bart View Post
    Your lathe setup, looks sweet. Some day my little one is just going to have to grow up.
    I wish that I some useful information or insight to help you out more. I hadn't thought about using the trigger wheel. And that broaching does take time.
    I have been visiting with my son that is going into one of the instrumentation fields, and maybe with his help I might have half a chance to to accomplish what you are doing. You just make it look so simple.
    What size do you have? My old girl is just a 9"x36 bench top rolled out of the South Bend Lathe Works in December 1948.

    Any insight you can provide as to how you guys use these engines is helpful. Like I said, I'm not an airboat enthusiast (although I wish I could be). All I am doing ia tinkering with the powerplant and hopefully giving all of you something useful in the process.
    Last edited by armorer243; 05-14-2018 at 10:36 PM.

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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    some use them for ultra lite aircraft. i personally use mine to power a 11.5 airboat. it takes me anywhere i want to go on water and sometimes no water as long as its not wet sand and then it stops pretty quick. but grass it slides two people any where i want to go as long as it's not a steep grade. just wish i had about 20 more horsepower. thinking about adding a turbo. all your work is a+ and it's making a lot of us think about efi and electronic ignition. even though i think i have fixed all my magneto problems they could start again at any time. may go electronic ignition fuel injection and slap on a turbo and be done with it.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Great thread...It sure would be nice to have an alternative to the magneto and carb arrangement and this might be it...Bringing these engines into the 21st century is a needed step forward for our application...Excellent craftsmanship on the parts so far..

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  9. #29
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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Thank you for the feedback, glad to know it is useful.

    A bit of progress to report the last couple days. The Speeduino v0.4.3 board has been assembled and put on top of an Arduino Mega2560 clone. A while ago I transitioned away from thru-hole components to surface-mount components for my own designs and after a learning curve, fell in love with the simplicity of reflowing SMD's. After working with thru-hole parts on this board I can say I don't miss them much. But I digress....

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    It took a while to get it tested but I finally configured it and with an engine simulator burned on another Arduino I verified that the coil outputs fire as they should. I should have taken a video of the TunerStudio dashboard to show everything working buuuuut I didn't. That will be in another update. But I can say this board will definitely work for our application. However, I don't like the physical format of having a piggyback. My work on the standalone board continues and if it works will be application-specific to this engine, more or less. I don't think we need as many inputs and outputs as the guys who put this board on road vehicles. I am shooting for a fully-assembled board with a price point of <$75 and you would have to supply the trigger ring, coils, and wiring for your application. Since I would have to order 10 boards from the fab house, would there be 9 other people interested in one if I could make it work? These would be fully assembled and tested, all you would have to do is set a couple jumpers and wire it up to some type of smart coil such as the Toyota 1ZZFE's or GM LS2's.

    The goal today is to degree the crankshaft and trigger ring together and determine the angle for the software to calculate crankshaft position if SWMBO doesn't come up with something urgent. The mother-in-law is coming for a visit the next couple days and the list of things for me to do keeps getting revised when the end is in sight.

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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    i would take 2 if they were shown to work. video etc. are the circuit boards supplied with the fuel injection and electronic ignition combined? are you going to machine the injector buns or buy them for the fuel injection ?
    Last edited by bgmcl60; 05-22-2018 at 12:51 PM.
    4a084
    Arrow belt drive
    marty bray 116 mini pro
    solex 32/36
    weber 32/36
    solex 34 pict 3
    weber 34 ich
    Razor x 3 blade

  11. #31
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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    this has really got me thinking, trying to see how many more projects that i can have half way finished.
    the last week i have been looking at a speeduino forum, and one of Hackaday projects
    http://speeduino.com/forum
    https://hackaday.io/project/4413-speeduino

    some of the things are starting to come together, kind of vaguely, at times, but it is starting to help me understand and see some different ideas to find the solutions to putting all the pieces together.
    the more i look at this, I am thinking I would be interested in this also. like Bobby, I would be leaning towards, a board with both the EFI & updated ignition system.
    there is a lot of information that i have found, just trying to wrap my head around some of the new terminology and understand how it all works together.
    thanks again for starting this thread.

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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Count me in as well...You may need to offer this in a kit form with the other components after your testing is complete depending on the final parts tally...

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  13. #33
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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Quote Originally Posted by bgmcl60 View Post
    are the circuit boards supplied with the fuel injection and electronic ignition combined? are you going to machine the injector buns or buy them for the fuel injection ?
    The boards would have everything populated for EFI and ignition, it would be your choice whether you would want to hook up the injectors and O2 sensor or not. You could use it as standalone ignition, injection, or both depending on what you attached to it. I plan on machining my own, I have some 1.5" 6061 aluminum on order that should be here by the end of the week. My plan is to make a set of adapters that hold the fuel fitting down with a pair of screws so I can run individual hoses to each injector vs fabricating a fuel rail. With the way this engine is configured I wouldn't trust a solid rail to work very well with the expansion/contraction of independent cylinders in this arrangement.

    So here is my solution for a crank position sensor. It is an ATS624 sensor designed for the purpose of reading tooth wheels with a high degree of accuracy. I took a bit of 3/8 aluminum rod and drilled a hole slightly larger than the sensor and potted it with high-temp sensor-safe RTV.

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    So how I went about timing everything is I used a multimeter on the sensor trigger lead with a pullup resistor. When the sensor picks up the leading edge of a tooth it shuts off the ground and the pullup resistor causes the lead to read HIGH (or 5VDC). When the sensor picks up the falling edge of a tooth it connects the signal lead to ground, causing it to read LOW. Since the TunerStudio software is looking for the first rising edge after the gap, this is the degree figure we need. So I attached the trusty degree wheel and found #1 TDC using a little adapter I made for the old spark plugs. Secured in with a machinist's best friend (super glue) I attached it to the plug and zero'd the degree wheel for TDC. Once that was done, I turned the crank to 285 degrees after (or 75 before) and loosened the nut holding the wheel and hub. Watching the multimeter, I slowly turned the hub without moving the crankshaft until the trigger went HIGH on the leading edge of the first tooth following the gap. I snugged everything down and verified that at 74.5 degrees the sensor read LOW, at 75 it read HIGH. Close enough. I removed the degree wheel and torqued everything down and you couldn't move that hub with a sledgehammer and a punch. After that I used a propane torch to heat the plug adapter until the super glue softened and I pulled it out with no damage to the plug.

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    And there you have it. Here are my thoughts on a standalone board that doesn't need an Arduino as a backpack. The current iteration of the Speeduino boards is a very broad and universal project meant to fit nearly everything with any kind of senor, coil, injector, etc. To make things easy I was thinking of either putting together a kit or having a list of parts you should use or acceptable substitutes. PWM idle air control if you wanted it, but no stepper provision. Hall crank sensor only, no provision for VR (variable reluctance). Two AUX outs, two AUX ins, done. Firmware is already burned, you just wire it up and plug into a laptop to enter your engine parameters.
    Last edited by armorer243; 05-23-2018 at 09:47 PM. Reason: Corrected a math error in crank degrees

  14. #34
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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    it is looking good, you really got the A game going, I finally seen and realized that you had replaced all the 1/4" cap screws with socket headed ones. simple trade outs like that, can make it look a lot cleaner. I can see getting a box of them. at least for the intake manifolds. a couple of them are a tight fit with the regular cap screw.

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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Quote Originally Posted by Bart View Post
    it is looking good, you really got the A game going, I finally seen and realized that you had replaced all the 1/4" cap screws with socket headed ones. simple trade outs like that, can make it look a lot cleaner. I can see getting a box of them. at least for the intake manifolds. a couple of them are a tight fit with the regular cap screw.
    I tried replaying to your PM but I didn't see it added to my Sent folder. Either way, I couldn't handle the chewed-up slotted head cap screws any more. Reminded me that some bugger who had no mechanical abilities molested the poor engine with a poor fitting screwdriver and probably a claw hammer.

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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Nice write up and illustrations for getting the job done...That makes it easy to follow for future reference..
    You need to check the box for your sent PMs to show up in the folder...Other than that you won't have any reference what/when the reply was sent..

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  17. #37
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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    I was looking up the tentative amp draw for the EFI system, http://www.aa1car.com/library/electrical_amp_loads.htm
    this page gave me a few ideas on what will be needed for the charging system. to handle the added load.
    on one forum it stated that the EFI (fuel only) would draw 7.5 to 8 amps.
    and then if you add the ignition system into the equation, the amperage draw looks like it can go quite a bit higher. from looking at the link above.

    on one of the mods that i did, to replace the stock stator with one off a 4-wheeler, (still haven't started the motor to test and see if it will actually work)
    but that stator will only produce 13 to 14 amps @ 12 volts, which is still better than the stock stator with 1.5 amps @24 volts

    so even if my stator up grade does work, the say 14 amps could work, if I only upgrade the fuel part, but if I change it all over, I would need to install an alternator, like what Bobby & others have done.
    This is something else to look at, and add into the build.
    my math might be wrong but adding things from the link above
    EFI fuel only 8 amps
    ignition coil (coil on plug) 6 amps X 4 = 24 amps
    ignition system 6 to 20 amps
    and the list can go on, with other things added.

  18. #38
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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    question,
    i know you are using the coil packs, where you got the toyota ones, and now looking at the LS-7's,
    but i am looking at using what i have on hand. a couple of years ago i replaced a 1999 Ford 5.0 motor, and seeing if it would work to use some of the items off of it. for the ignition part
    in looking at the schematic below, it looks like I would be using the speeduino board in place of the Ford EEC & EDIS modules. am I correct in this thinking?
    if that is the case, the only fabrication i would need to to, is to mount & set timing the 36-1 trigger wheel to fire on the #1 cylinder. Or where it looks like I may be need to add an alternator, I could build my own pulley. similar to what you did.
    am I wrong in this direction of thought?

    with the 084 firing order 1-4-2-3, cylinders 1&2, and 4&3, are opposite of each other. so they could be firing at the same time. all i would need to know is if on the ford coil pack is that each set of wires are firing at 180 degrees off.
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    Last edited by Bart; 05-26-2018 at 05:52 PM.

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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    I finally sat down and watch the assemble videos, and went through a lot of the pages on the speeduino web page. so it answered my question, I do need to go with the LS-7 GM coils, at least that is what i am reading. but the concept is generally the same, as long as the trigger wheel is timed correctly, everything else should fall into place.
    i quess if I would take time to read and study up just a little more, I would answer most of my questions. at the moment. when I was going over the many pages on the speeduino web page, i was finding so many answers to other questions that i have, but as usual i didn't take time to write them down or copy and past to another folder. so now i will have to go back and dig through the web page again, i think before the summer is out, i may actually know something that i am talking about
    it was kind of entertaining to watch him assemble a board, slowly I am starting to get this sorted out in my mind,

    when i was looking at the speeduino forum I had came across a wiring diagram that had been put together and it had the single coil pack, so that is where I got the idea that, using the Ford coil pack might be possible
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    Last edited by Bart; 05-27-2018 at 10:31 AM. Reason: added wiring diagram

  20. #40
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    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    I have been looking for throttle bodies that could be work for this application, and I have found a lot for 2.5" and bigger, and some places even recommended converting the carb throttle body to accept the TPI sensor,
    and on most of the web sites that sell the kits, really don't have a listing for the individual parts from their kits.

    then i came across the link below, and am thinking this might work, a 34mm throttle body. just need to find the correct plug connections, but they come with the TPI, & a stepper motor.
    the funny thing, looking up the price of a Mikuni 34mm rubber flange, they are almost the same price as the throttle body.
    any thoughts?
    I did find some that have a bolt flange on the backside, but they are all over 100 and change.

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Moto...07.13338.98644

    this link is to all the throttle body's & styles that they list.
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3275...ddresstype=600
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