Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 55 of 55

Thread: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

  1. #41
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Susquehanna river, Dauphin, Pa
    Posts
    1,225

    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    The TBI set-up would be an easy way out compared to the port injection no questions there...But I have to wonder just how much of the associated fuel delivery problems end up in the mix...The limitations of the different length intake runners will still be present and would still be creating the "lean and rich" cylinders using a suspended fuel charge just like the carbs are doing...
    The port injection eliminates that part of the equation...

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  2. #42
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Susquehanna river, Dauphin, Pa
    Posts
    1,225

    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Maybe I was looking at the wrong part..First one that popped up was a unit with an injector bung...Are you looking for a unit with a TPS for port fuel injection ??

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  3. #43
    Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    403

    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Corky, I think you might be confusing TPI with the TBI,
    what i am looking at is a 34mm throttle body, with a throttle position sensor & a stepper motor.
    we will still need to fab or purchase injector bosses, to attach near the intake ports on the motor.
    it can be with a fuel rail like what Less has below or a stand alone boss that you can plum in 4 separate fuel lines, from a pressurized manifold. or plum the boss's in series. there are a few options on how one could plum the fuel lines.
    i was looking at throttle bodies from different cars, makes and models. and trying to find something in the 34mm or smaller range, i couldn't find much. so many of the throttle bodies are made for the larger displacement motors and even the simplest ones seem like they would let to much air though. before the butterfly would be opened fully. tuning the larger ones could be a nightmare.
    i came across these web pages while i was looking at the speeduino forum. and the price seemed doable. the link below, they give you many options of purchasing the different sizes of throttle bodies, with different options installed on it. if i went with this style, i would put a plug in the injector port. but the one on the earlier post is with in my price range.

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3275...ddresstype=600


    i am also looking at the throttle bodies they have that include an injector, for my 2 stroke motor, from what i have read and learned so far about these boards, i could see installing fuel injection on my Cuyuna, (to many projects, never enough time) also with my Cuyuna I need to find out how many amps its stator is putting out, hopefully it is enough to power an EFI system, if not i will have to install a alternator on it also.


    Attached Images Attached Images    
    Last edited by Bart; 05-28-2018 at 12:28 AM.

  4. #44
    New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Nebraska, USA
    Posts
    26

    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Quote Originally Posted by Bart View Post
    for the ignition part in looking at the schematic below, it looks like I would be using the speeduino board in place of the Ford EEC & EDIS modules. am I correct in this thinking?
    That's correct, on the coil pack pin 1 fires one pair of plugs, pin 3 fires the other pair. Pin 2 is ground. However, if you do use these coils you will need to replace a small portion of the EDIS circuitry. The Speeduino spark outputs are a low current affair Which works for the GM LS2-7's and Toyota 1ZZFE's, but to drive a "dumb" coil pack will require a higher current driver. The Bosch BIP373 transistors would work, but that involves another circuit board, wiring, and heatsinking. You could try leaving the entire system in place, however the Speeduino would need to be running a different code to calculate spark advance based upon the signal coming from the EEC. A good explaination of what is happening is here: http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/EDIS.htm

    In looking at the EDIS system I would probably recommend going to a junkyard and getting GM LS2's or something of that nature. Trying to interface with it involves writing new code (which will be a nightmare) and driving the coils with external drivers will cost about as much as buying something different anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bart View Post
    with the 084 firing order 1-4-2-3, cylinders 1&2, and 4&3, are opposite of each other. so they could be firing at the same time. all i would need to know is if on the ford coil pack is that each set of wires are firing at 180 degrees off.
    Yep, that's correct. You can pair 1&2, 4&3 together for a wasted spark configuration.

    I have been looking at throttle bodies a lot as well and the only thing that held me up was the wiring. They just don't provide enough info to figure out what plugs into them. One way to get around it (although it may be a bit of work) is to go to a U-Pull-It junkyard, pop open some hoods, and find a sensor connected to a wiring harness and use a pair of wire cutters to take the TPS, plug, and a bit of wire together. From there, adapt it to fit onto the existing carb throttle shaft. The other option is to get that 34mm throttle body from AliExpress, solder wire leads onto the connector pins, and squirt some RTV into the housing to seal it up. I am betting you can figure out which option I am leaning toward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky View Post
    The TBI set-up would be an easy way out compared to the port injection no questions there...But I have to wonder just how much of the associated fuel delivery problems end up in the mix.
    I strongly considered going this route. For simplicity, having just a single injector in a throttle body would be the cat's meow. But for the issues you stated and for the airplane guys having fuel drop out of suspension and condense on the intake pipes is another issue. I would be interested if someone would try it and see how it works.

  5. #45
    Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    403

    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    I was reading up on what type of injectors that are supported by the speeduino board, and found out that the Speeduino supports High-Z injectors natively. the Low-Z injectores are supported with the additon of resistors wired in series with the signal wires. and High-Z injectors are typically those with a resistance greater than 8 Ohms.
    this came off the Speeduino discussion about wiring.

    https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php/Injector_wiring

    this page also talks about a few different ways that the injectors can be wired or configured.
    it was kind of interesting to read up on, most fuel injector systems are batch fired.
    Speeduino is saying that their injector timing is Semi-Sequential. or will fire in an numerical order.
    i haven't read up enough to know if there needs to be a cam sensor also installed. Or if the injectors are coded to fire every 720 degrees. or once for 2 rotations of the crankshaft?
    there is alway some small things to read up on.
    FOUND THE ANSWER
    if there is an cam sensor, it will run sequential, but with out a cam sensor, it will fire only batch. see link below. (last paragraph on page)
    https://speeduino.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1510


    (I strongly considered going this route. For simplicity, having just a single injector in a throttle body would be the cat's meow. But for the issues you stated and for the airplane guys having fuel drop out of suspension and condense on the intake pipes is another issue. I would be interested if someone would try it and see how it works.)

    up untill now i have always thought an figured that these systems were designed for an injector for each intake port, hadn't thought about a single throttle body injector system. if you went that route? would one of the modified 084 intake plenums work better, where it would be a down draft, it has always seemed like the stock side draft plenum was always leaning out the back 2 cylinders.
    Last edited by Bart; 05-28-2018 at 09:34 PM. Reason: found answer to if it runs batch fire or sequential.

  6. #46
    New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Nebraska, USA
    Posts
    26

    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Since a cam sensor is not easily done, I am running batch with a crank sensor only. If I did do a TBI I would have just bound one of the throttle bodies with an injector bung in it and called it a day. But since I am not, off to the lathe we go to make mounting bosses.

    On another note, today I neared completion of the PCB. I should have it done within the next week and sent to China for fabrication. Dimensions are 4.4" x 3.45"

    Name:  Capture.jpg
Views: 119
Size:  100.5 KB

  7. #47
    Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    403

    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    thanks for the information about the board only supporting an batch fire. that really makes it a lot simpler, i was starting to look at options on trying to install a camshaft sensor. now i don't need to.
    i wish i knew more about how to build a board like you do. but hopefully before this is done, i will know enough to get into trouble.
    i am thinking about getting a crank trigger wheel made up with the custom size for this. when i look at the time involved and my lack of knowledge, i figure if i made it myself, i might get it right on the 3rd or 4th time. but in the link below, the price isn't to bad, to have one made up.
    https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php...heel_Generator
    Last edited by Bart; 05-29-2018 at 06:54 PM.

  8. #48
    New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Nebraska, USA
    Posts
    26

    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Quote Originally Posted by Bart View Post
    thanks for the information about the board only supporting an batch fire.
    The board will be able to run two sensors and set up a full sequential operation if you can figure out how to put a cam sensor on the engine. I suppose one could bore a hole in the timing cover and arrange some sort of modification of the cam gear to trigger once every revolution but that seems like a lot of effort and possibility of things to go wrong for such a small gain.

    Either way, the board has the capability of two sensors but you will only need one on the crank to make it work. The wheel generator is something I wish I would have done. For the time I spent making mine I could have bought 10 of them.

  9. #49
    New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Nebraska, USA
    Posts
    26

    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    So after a hellish couple weeks I was finally able to get some time in the garage. I was in a bad place and needed to feel some sort of achievement with something so I rushed this forward. The workmanship is shoddy at best and pretty dangerous in terms of shorts, fires, and other issues but I made another milestone.

    First run:


    Starting:


    I set the ECU to give 2 full rotations before firing to allow the crank sensor a little time to stabilize and to predict the rotation. Even with the idle set too low on a carb that is in horrible shape it fires right off. I also tested the overspeed protection and it works great, won't go over my setpoint of 3750. Next steps are to figure out what that rasping sound is on the bell housing and whether I want to reuse these coils and run short plug wires or to scrap them altogether and use GM LS2's from the junkyard. Also to add an Arduino-powered governor that runs with a servo. A hackish throttle-by-wire, if you will. Once those things are in place I will start with the EFI.

    A note on the boards. I have the design finalized and sent off to the fab house. When it comes back and the components come in I will solder it up and see if my design is solid. Updates to come!
    Last edited by armorer243; 06-12-2018 at 11:14 AM.

  10. #50
    Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    403

    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    it was good to see the video. you make it look so simple.
    one of the things that has impressed me with the 084 motor, is how balanced it is. I have had other small motors, that when you start them up. they will literally bounce off the table on all over the floor, if they are not mounted to anything. and these motors just sit there.
    this is going to be a fun little project.

  11. #51
    New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Nebraska, USA
    Posts
    26

    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    One thing I found out is that this engine does not like having its timing messed with. I must have gotten the trigger ring right on the money because with a fixed 28-degree timing the engine runs like a champ. Change it 1 degree either side of 28 and it does not run well at all. Even at idle I figured a little less advance would help but I was wrong. Even changing to 27 degrees causes a drop of 60 RPM. Interesting stuff.

    So, on a positive note, we will not need to worry about ignition tuning. Set it to a fixed 28 and forget it.

  12. #52
    Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    403

    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    question, about installing a trigger wheel, i have been thinking about how to keep it simple. for some of us. i like the speeduino has a link to a to place that will cut out a trigger wheel to measurements needed.
    so to install a trigger wheel to the back of the rope pulley. there is about 1/4" clearance between the pulley and the case. that you have to play with.
    the trigger wheel that i have in had is 1/4" thick, so my thoughts are to turn down the inside 1/8 of an inch, leaving the teeth the full 1/4". and this will center it onto the pulley. and trim the inside of the wheel to match the inside diameter of the pulley.

    from what i am seeing at the moment the teeth will clear the vent cover.
    but this way when i install the pickup sensor, it can be mounted securely to the case.
    where as if i mount the trigger wheel to the outside of the pulley. like how Les did with his hall sensor. it will take a lot more keep the pickup sensor bracket solid
    i have read that the minimum bracket thickness you want is 1/4", for mounting the sensor to. (if it moves when you apply pressure to it, the bracket is to weak.)
    so the next question. i am thinking would it hurt the pulley to drill and tap 1/4" threads between the magnets? and secure the trigger wheel with 1/2" or 3/4" long machine or cap screws.
    also for mounting the sensor bracket, would it be wise to incorporate something like what MSD did, so the sensor can be adjusted? where i have a key way on my front pulley.

    with only few thousands gap between the sensor and the trigger wheel. and positioning the sensor for timing, will be 2 of the most thought out parts for assembling this.

    to me this should work. what do you think?
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  13. #53
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    jacksonville fl
    Posts
    264
    My only question is will the magnets inside the pulley affect output of the trigger?

    Sent from my SM-G935VC using Tapatalk
    4a084
    Arrow belt drive
    marty bray 116 mini pro
    solex 32/36
    weber 32/36
    solex 34 pict 3
    weber 34 ich
    Razor x 3 blade

  14. #54
    Member Bart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    403

    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    I will have check and see, the reason why I was thinking this option could work,
    was with all my 4-wheeler, and snowmachine motors, the tabs are mounted on the outside of the flywheels, and they are using a VR sensor to read the tabs as they go by.
    all of these flywheels have magnets on them.
    I may just need to assemble this and use a multimeter to see if it will read the correct voltage drop & spikes when the teeth go by.
    but that's a good question.

  15. #55
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Susquehanna river, Dauphin, Pa
    Posts
    1,225

    Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion & Laying the groundwork for EFI

    Any progress on your system refinements ? Anything come back from manufacturing ??

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •