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Thread: new guy looking for ideas

  1. #21
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    Awesome support, guys!
    I'm digging up a tach this week, and trying to get info on the prop. no markings, of course, so i'm trying to remember where I put the original kit manual. (I hate this getting older stuff, it cramps my lifestyle!) It was called the hydro rat, I think it was made in Colorado, I'll keep posting updates, thanks so much for all this info, my brain is trying valiantly to keep up!

  2. #22
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    just a P.S.
    at idle, this motor bounces a bit, is this normal for a 2 cylinder 2 stroke? Runs fine when you get on the throttle, no misses or flat spots. Most of my experience has been with gas and diesel truck, bus, car & motorcycle engines, so this thing still puzzles me.
    I'm using a synthetic 2 stroke oil TC W3 - Penzoil I think.
    I had fun figuring out the wiring. I got the motor in a basket, literally. It's been years since i ran anything with points and a magneto. My timing light died, so I ended up setting the timing with a cheap flashlight with leads tapped into the pos & neg. Static timing light, sort of. Worked really well. It's how I found the cylinder leads were reversed, funny how she won't run like that!

  3. #23
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    I wish that I had written down more notes from last summer but if memory serves me correct, at idle, i am thinking below 1500 rpm, there was a lot of rattling, but as soon as i put a little throttle, it would even out. i forget what that spot was. but if the prop was off. there was no vibration when idling. I just always thought it had something to do with the prop harmonics.
    now you have got me wondering. this next week i may have to pull it out of storage, and get you some hard numbers.
    i feel your pain on the wiring. there is only a few wires, i still need to take time and chase down a couple of gremlins on mine. I made the mistake and pinched a wire or two when i was assembling it one time, spliced everything back together, heat shrunk it. and all last summer it wasn't producing enough volts to charge the battery. i never took the time to pull it apart. and find out what i did wrong. I was to busy trying to chase down my fuel problem, and other tuning issues. Hopefully I can sit back and get more accomplished this coming summer, and tie up a lot of these loose ends,

  4. #24
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    my cuyuna did the same thing at low rpm ran better at 1000 or more. i thought the rattle and scraping mine was doing was the gear box.
    4a084
    Arrow belt drive
    marty bray 116 mini pro
    solex 32/36
    weber 32/36
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    weber 34 ich
    Razor x 3 blade

  5. #25
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    3Cells,
    I just noticed your post and picture of your Rockwell powered boat. It looks to me like you have a Banks-Maxwell 42" prop. I had the same setup mounted on my jon boat for many years. Banks-Maxwell sold the engines and props along with plans to build the cage. The prop is designed to de-rate the engine from 40hp to about 25 due to propeller tip speeds. That prop won't give you any more thrust at a higher rpm because the tip speed will go supersonic and the noise level will go up exponentially, I can tell you from experience. I was planning on getting a reduction drive for mine but never found one to fit so I parted it out and built a true mini with an 084 engine ... what a difference!
    11'6" Marty Bray Hull
    4A084 Continental
    Circle "S" 1.69:1 Reducer
    67" Whirlwind Razor X Prop
    SS Rigging

  6. #26
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    aerokirk, I think you nailed it, seems to match the pics I've been able to find, Thanks for the input! I wonder if a "simple" prop upgrade would help?

  7. #27
    Member aerokirk's Avatar
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    Unfortunately, I think not since that engine can’t develop full horsepower at the lower rpms that propellers are most efficient. You may find a used reducer to fit that engine since there should be many out there from the ultralight flyers. A reducer would allow you to get ful horsepower from that engine. JMO
    11'6" Marty Bray Hull
    4A084 Continental
    Circle "S" 1.69:1 Reducer
    67" Whirlwind Razor X Prop
    SS Rigging

  8. #28
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    if you do decide to go with a redrive, i found that a 2.65 ratio works for my Cuyuna, it came with a 3.01 ratio. but i would need to have used 18 degree pitch blocks to keep the rpm's in check. and per the manufacture, that might create other problems as well. so when i seen the 2.65 gearbox come up on Ebay, i grabbed it.
    but without the shroud that i have which covers my flywheeel. you will need to use an pulley and belt set up. and you will have to figure out the distance needed so your shaft will clear the flywheel. ( if you keep the electric start.) and like Aerokirk mentioned the best place to look is in the ultralight community. if you can contact Jbird, and show them what you have, they should be able to give you some options. that we may not have thought of also.
    trust me, most of us know the feeling, at least I do. i find a good deal, purchase it in the heat of the moment. and then find out the previous owner only half way thought it through. and then i am stuck, seeing if i can make it work with some modifications. my better half, ends up shaking her head, and just asks have you learned anything from this project?

  9. #29
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    wow bart, that sounds like the voice of experience speaking! Thanks for the info, I'm on the road for a week, hopefully when I get back, I'll have a tach waiting for me, & I can start making some intelligent & informed mistakes, all good clean fun!

  10. #30
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    I might have just a little experience with this old motor. the hardest part is finding parts. i look at the Ebay listing still almost weekly, and the Yahoo cuyuna page. just looking to see if there are any parts i need for sale. and when i do so something i need, you have to act on it. for there are just a few others out there looking also. so if you end up going with this motor, you will need to be willing to be patient and search the web or go to swap meets. (i wish i lived somewhere close where they had them) to find the parts that you will want to have on hand. just in case something happens. you are dealing with motors & accessories for them. that haven't been in production for almost 50 years. i have a friend that has a cuyuna set up with an pulley system on it. that he purchased, and put on an airboat. years ago. i still need to go and see it. but he like you can't get it up on step. and the last time he took it out on a lake close by where he lives, he ended up walking back. due to some problems. and that was a few years before i got into this. but i need to take some time and take a look at his set up and try to help him figure out his options. still waiting for him to show me some pictures of what he has.
    at the moment i have learned enough about parts of this airboating, just to be dangerous. i have got some good advise from more than a few on this forum, "if i am willing to listen." but many times i have to still go the direction that i was working on. just to prove them right.
    but above all keep dreaming and be patient. and enjoy the journey.

  11. #31
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    Hey, I have a chance to get a cuyuna redrive, but have no idea how much to offer on this used unit, it's a 2;1 I think its a belt drive, any help is welcome, Is a 2;1 close enough to the 1.69;1 to work with the right prop/pitch/size? Or would I be buying a used can of worms?
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  12. #32
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    not quite for sure what i am looking at, it almost looks like a planetary reduction drive system, from the angle that i am looking at it. do you know what brand it is. and if you have the correct mounting bracket.
    you may need to get some information from the seller, what it was used for, and what you need to look out for, and be aware of when using it.
    if the seller can't give you some good sound information. i would be wary of the purchase.
    i would like to see a picture of it. when it was installed. so i would know if it would fit my application. these are just some thoughts that i have.
    here is an interesting article about one brand of planetary redrive.
    http://www.ultralightnews.com/buying...-problems.html

    as far as the gearing you need to take the max rpm that you will run the motor at and divide it by the gear ratio. with what my motor came with a 3.01 reduction a 4 bladed ultra prop, w/ 15 degree blocks. . so at 6000 rpm's, the prop speed would have been 1993 rpms. but when i finally put it in the water and installed a tach. i found that i was reaching 6000 rpms at 3/4 throttle. and at full throttle, well lets just say it was not good.
    and this was how i purchased it. so lesson learned. just because i purchased it that way, doesn't mean that it is correct. and will work. i was informed that it was originally purchase to go in an ultra light plane 20 years ago. i shudder to think of what would have happened in the air. playing on water is just a little safer.
    and per the manufacture of the ultra prop. they were thinking i would need 18 degree pitch blocks to and then that might be to much of a pitch and my motor may stall.
    so i found a 2.65 ratio. and at 6000 rpm.my prop rpms are at 2264 and with the 4 bladed prop i had, I ended up getting 14 degree blocks to dial my rpms to the range I needed.
    if you had a 1.69 ratio, at 6000 rpms. your prop rpms would be 3550. from what i have read, at that rpm your prop tips would be going to fast.

    so much depends on what prop you end up going with. and you then tune it to your motor. the prop with its size and pitch, acts as an governor for the motor to keep the rpms in check.
    case in point.
    when i first started up my 084 motor, i wasn't thinking about the carb not having a spring on the linkage. and for what ever reason. when i started it up. and let go of the linkage, it went wide open. not good. so i would grab hold of the linkage and get the rpms back in check, but at wide open with no load on the motor. its rpms went over 5500. lucky i didn't throw a rod or do any serous damage. (that i know of) i look back on this and all i can do is chuckle and shake my head, & blame it on a stupid sandwich that i had for lunch.

    i hope some of this information helps.
    Last edited by Bart; 04-06-2018 at 04:51 PM.

  13. #33
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    here's another pic. From the conversation I had with Chuck at Jbird earlier, he thinks it's a Dover redrive, planetary. I'd probably have to lose my starter ring gear to make it work. Lot's of "don't know" here on my end!
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  14. #34
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    where you are dealing with Jbird, i think Chuck has forgot more than i will ever know. i have visited with him a time or two in the past. let him know what you have, and where you are wanting to go with it. and he should be able to set up, and maybe even with the correct prop that will work with this unit. i really don't think he will try to steer you wrong. If it has been tried, i think he has had to deal with it, in the ultralight industry.
    so is that 2 units that he has? what does he want for one of them?

  15. #35
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    yes, it's 2 planetary drives, 1 is sold already, Chuck is pretty sure it won't work without losing my starter ring gear & I can't pull start this motor. also, not sure of the value of one of these units, so I haven't made an offer. I'm trying to research the mechanics involved,but I'm inclined to pass on this in favor of a more conventional/and interchangeable belt redrive, This one is pretty much a 1 trick pony. If you're interested, PM me, I'll get you his number.

  16. #36
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    i really don't have an application for this at the moment. the set up that i am using seems to be working alright. i know what you mean by wanting to keep the electric start. my set up will pull start with just a slight tug on the rope. but it is so convenient to just push a button. & i have no desire to give that up.
    this was the first time that i had seen a planetary redrive for sale. so it got my interest.
    but is sounds like you are learning and starting to get an idea of where you are wanting to go with this project. can't wait to see what you end up finding to make this work, to your advantage.

  17. #37
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    wow, must be nice!Pull starting this beast is a joke. If I grab the handle firmly with both hands, plant both feet on the starter casing, and pull with everything I have, I might get the motor to turn over once, with the added bonus of destroying my back and ending up overboard! Yeah, until I can afford a redrive unit, the electric starter isn't dispensable. On the upside, I know the compression's good!
    P.S. got a simple tach waiting at home, soon as I get back, It's my first project. I'll bet I'm maxing out under 3000

  18. #38
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    WOW, something doesn't sound right. is it just as hard to turn over with the plugs out?
    if it takes that much effort, some day that rope is going to break, and you will end up swimming.
    i never needed that much effort on a bigger CC 2 stroke motors on a cold winter morning.
    but I had a sportsman 500 4 wheeler that the compression release wasn't working, and it felt like it was dead heading.
    but now you got my curiosity, wondering why it is so hard to turn over.

    does your motor start up easy with the electric start?
    if not. see below.
    now that i think about it. pull the plugs and pull it over. it should spin freely. with very little effort.
    make sure the kill switch is in the off position.
    you may see gas coming out of the spark plug holes. (If you have a spark, it could get entertaining real fast. just don't ask me how i know about that.) ( i have had it shoot up over 10 feet high.)
    if there is gas, coming out. then your carb's main jet is leaking. and allowing your crank case to fill up with gas.
    and this is hard on all the components.
    Last edited by Bart; 04-08-2018 at 04:28 PM.

  19. #39
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    Nah, plugs out, I can actually spin her fine. Just haven't been able to figure out how to get them back in before she stops turning!
    Seriously though, the direct drive wooden/stainless prop has a lot of weight/leverage, plus I'm probably 130 pounds dry weight, so that's probably not the physical demographic the OEM folks were envisioning when they made this rig! So, maybe I'm just not the best control/test subject. On the plus side I'm less payload! If you see any deals on a belt redrive that's fairly interchangeable, let me know. If I acquire and incorpoate 1 component at a time, I can be working towards replacement when this 50 year old unit finally quits.

  20. #40
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    Re: new guy looking for ideas

    just saw the last part of barts reply,
    It starts really well with the starter, I actually have the opposite problem with fuel feed. If I sit more than a few minutes with the engine off, the fuel drains out of the lines back into the tank, combination of motor height, and probably a leaky check valve or gasket. I already have an in-line squeeze bulb for priming, so I installed a petcock just under the carb, as an air release, for quick re-priming. It would be simpler to just tear down the carb/fuel pump assembly, but I'm not sure I could find a rebuild kit for something this old, and I'm too lazy to mess with it. I'd rather put some energy into the new (er) hull I just got. It's fiberglass, been beat to death but repairable, it's 2 Ft. wider, 1 Ft shorter, and weighs about 100 Lbs less, still not the ideal of a new build in aluminum, but it has to be an improvement!

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