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Thread: bgmcl60 Build

  1. #41
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    thats what i plan to do corky cut the tubes at an angle. working on the intake right now.
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  2. #42
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    Yeah, I was overthinking it and was refering to massaging those intake tubes in the above pics on an offset so the runners and intake align a little better...But it appears they'll be fine the way you're doing it..Carry on... I'm really digging your A/F gauge and although I have an innovative wideband A/F LM-1 data logger I might just go ahead and get one of those considering I'm a hot rodder at heart and will be digging into my 084 in the near future...

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  3. #43
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    i started jetting carburetor today and put in a 125 from original 140 main jet. it's still runing rich but no black smoke from exhaust but are sooty. didn't have a smaller jet to try so i ordered a 100. i figure i can drill out this jet if it's too small. that is what i had planned for the 125 but not the case. if i can get it to stop loading up plugs i can fine tune it. it still runs great but would foul the plugs out soon. got to pick up a new set tomorrow to start fresh. both fuel air gauges quit working and now got to figure that out keeps going from 888 to A0. no fuel leaks and no sign of an air leak,
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    Last edited by bgmcl60; 08-29-2017 at 10:54 PM.

  4. #44
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    fine tuning is so much fun. question. before the air fuel gauges stopped working, were you able to tell where in the throttle range it was loading up the most.
    i thinking that you probably have forgot more about carbs than i will ever learn,
    it is frustrating, to only make one adjustment at a time, then test it out. and then make another adjustment.
    it seems on my cuyuna motor, i will make one adjustment, and it will take 10 to 15 minutes of running before it starts to load up. then back to the drawing board. but i am hoping that have it almost there.
    i wish that i had my 084 closer to running, and could compare notes, on what direction to go. but good luck and keep smiling.

  5. #45
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    not sure exact rpm . they weren't getting a smooth flow of exhaust and would work and quit and start back working. i took the exhaust off and found the 2 into 1 pipes were below sensor and not giving incorrect reading. i opened up where the bund is welded and hope that will fix the sensors. the sensor was setting in a cavity between the 2 pipes and i didn't realize it. what threw me off was the aspx website stated you needed a supressor if the gauge read 888. due to alternator noise.i put a supressor on the alternator and one at the connector at ign switch and made no difference. i even disconnected the alternator and also the one under the flywheel and made no difference. i'll figure it out. i got 2 gauges and 2 o2 sensors to work with.

  6. #46
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    after running at 2000 rpm for about 10 min my plugs started to clean up.i also found my problem with wideband gauge. the magneto duh. wasn't thinking aircraft engine and magneto. why do they have the shielded wires. rf signal screwing up any electronic device close to it. i took my gauge off the panel and connected to a remote battery and as soon as i started the engine the gauge started to work. i placed the gauge a few inches away from engine and went whackey again moved it away and started working again. im not sure the gauge is accurate but its a start. the engine is running lean and just by adjusting the mixture screw it smoothes out even a 2000 rpm. the plug show it leaning out from the 140 main jet. so some progress has been made. going to open the main jet .005 thousandths and try it again. even with it running lean no indication except a shake at 2000 and can be corrected by a small amount of choke.
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    Last edited by bgmcl60; 08-27-2017 at 10:03 AM.

  7. #47
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    Yeah, that's looking much better...Glad you figured the A/F gauge out...Here's a pic of a quick breakdown of plug reading for some who are following the thread...
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    Last edited by Corky; 08-27-2017 at 11:30 PM.

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  8. #48
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    everyone says the weber needs more heat . would this help.
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  9. #49
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    Are you planning on scavenging some heat off one of the exhaust manifolds ?

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  10. #50
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    i plan on connecting one end to output of oil from rear of engine to the coil and back to oil filter. it goes from the oil filter to the oil cooler. just taking off the supply line for oil filter and replacing it with coil of 1/4 in copper tubing. no drop of oil pressure. if it doesn't supply enough heat i will put it in a metal container. i was reading one of bart's post last night and i figured it would work on this intake even better since it already had a bolt hole in the bottom for some sort of brace. thanks bart for coming up with what i think is a great idea. if it don't work out i can just put the original line back on. 10 bucks for tubing and 8 bucks for fittings. not much as i have spent on other things that didn't work out or i gave up on.
    Last edited by bgmcl60; 08-29-2017 at 02:14 PM.

  11. #51
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    Wow that's a great idea please post pics of the routing when you get it done...It has to be an improvement for fuel atomization no matter how much oil is passing through...Another option :You could also epoxy {like JB weld} those coils to the intake so the heat transfers better to the aluminum instead of radiating it into the air..

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  12. #52
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    woops: i installed the copper line on the wrong place at the back of engine. i've got it hooked to the in and it should be hooked to out. after running 5 min its cold as ice. the out line is warm going to the oil cooler. need to change both fittings location not to screw of the flow to filter. well at least i thought i did. just checked it again and copper tubing is connected to out at the oil pump where oil should be pumped out by oil pump. now after running it a little longer the tubing is starting to get warm but not hot. the intake is cold and may take a while to heat up.
    Last edited by bgmcl60; 08-29-2017 at 04:55 PM.

  13. #53
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    Remember, the 084 block script "in" and "out" are not what they appear....
    Here's a cut from a thread a while back that Aerokirk posted :...During my build I was fascinated by this thread as to where to install my oil cooler and particularly by a comment that Duane made back on the first page. To quote him; "mmm.... I remember "something" about "in" and "out" being mislabeled on the 4A084. It seems like what I remember is that they are labeled from the perspective of the oil filter, not the engine".

    After reading through all four pages of this thread, I discovered that no answer was ever given to this statement. Today I removed both hoses to see for myself how the oil flowed in and out of the engine and behold, Duane was right! The crankcase port labeled "In" is actually where the oil flows out of the crankcase to the oil filter and the crankcase port labeled "Out" is where the oil re-enters the engine from the oil filter. The reason that this is important to me is that I plumbed my oil cooler in the oil line between the "Out" port and the oil filter and it has not been performing well. I am now re-plumbing it between the oil filter and the "In" port so that the hot oil goes through the cooler first, then the filter.

    Just a "heads Up" for other builders

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  14. #54
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    well its staying in the 12% range not going to fry anything if i test run it. i'm still not sure i got the copper tubes to heater hooked up right but it does get warm after a while of running maybe 10 to 15 min. not hot like i thought it should be.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbM7c_gtrs4&t=20s
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    Last edited by bgmcl60; 08-29-2017 at 06:38 PM.

  15. #55
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    i got the boat out from under tarp this morning and changed the idle jet to 45. the main jet is a 125. the main jet seems small for what others are using but not in 4A084 the vacuum is 18 in. the reason i went to a larger idle jet was the mixture screw was out almost 3 turns. it still has a slight shudder just off idle barley noticable and max rpm is still 3800.was thinking about trying to find an electric heater for under intake to warm it up and maybe get rid of the moisture collecting on intake it stays cold. the old cars not sure which one been so long but they used a heater under the carburetor in a spacer to heat up the gas and atomize the gas better. i'm thinking a willys jeep. the video is hard to see because of bright sun but it's leaning out to 13 percent now.
    https://youtu.be/uLHK-ffHo7w
    Last edited by bgmcl60; 08-30-2017 at 01:28 PM.

  16. #56
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    here are a couple of picts, that can help with understanding the oil flow path on the 084. the oil filter housing is an older style than what most of you have, i am thinking my motor is an 084-1 or -2 model.
    a few thoughts i have on the labeling of the "IN & OUT" on the motor and the oil filter housing.
    most of us are used to the thought " if fluid goes in one end of a tub it needs to go out the other end," and that was my thinking, when looking at this labeling.
    BUT i don't think that this was how the manufacture was thinking. to connect the lines on my motor correctly so the oil flows in the correct direction through the oil filter
    (i ended up taking everything apart just to follow where the flow of oil went through the filter housing.)
    they were more on the lines of connecting like to like. or OUT connected to OUT, and IN is connected to IN.
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    Last edited by Bart; 09-04-2017 at 01:49 AM.

  17. #57
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    that verifies what corky just posted. my lines are hooked up backward. makes sense why it takes so log to even get warm. i changed the idle jet earlier and could'nt understand why all my readings were getting leaner. so i took a magnifying glass and looked at the jet i just took out. it was a 60 and the 45 made it leaner to the point it had a bad shutter at 1100 rpm. need to go to 65 idle jet.
    https://youtu.be/OuUzYvS3c-U

  18. #58
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    Don't feel bad I need glasses to see just about every small detail these days let alone a jet number !!..So does that carb run the holley style jets ??? Bart those are some great reference pics as usual...

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  19. #59
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    this is a quote from the samba.com
    Main jet. 125 primary. 180-190 secondary (not a misprint). I've even seen some engines need 210 secondary mains. If you do not stagger your secondary jetting, you WILL have the same problem of severe lean out when the secondary opens up, since airspeed drops so much due to air flowing thru 2 bbls. You want to be lean on the primary (for mpg and cool running), but richen up to 13:1 when the secondary opens. Most clowns jet the primary and secondary the same. So when airspeed drops to <1/2 when the secondary opens, the vac signal the main circuit sees is also < halved, and your pride and joy leans out like crazy. This is why the secondary main MUST be much larger than the primary main. I'd like to slap the morons that recommends square jetting on the main jets. They are clueless.

    Air jets. 160-180 will work, I generally use 160 on primary, and 180 on secondary. If you use a 180 secondary air, you may need to go up 10 more on the main, to a 190-200 secondary main. Do NOT be scared of the "huge" secondary jet, it WILL WORK PROPERLY. I've setup hundreds of these carbs, and know what works and why.

    If you are at elevation, for every 4k'

    drop both idles 5
    drop both mains 5
    increase airs 10-15.

    These guidelines will work for a heated intake, properly setup carb (float, fuel pressure), with no ignition "issues".

    Sea Level, run 45/60, 125/190, 160/180
    @4-5K', run 45/55, 120/180, 175/190
    @8k', run 40/55, 115/175, 190/205.

    I even saw one guy at 8'k that needed a 37.5 primary idle.

    If you do not have the intake heated, your jetting will have to be much richer than this, for reasons mentioned previously.

    These guidelines are not exact, but VERY close.

    I hope this helps. E-mail me directly (please do NOT use PMs, I do not check these) and I'll help further. Please have the basics covered first (fuel pressure, floats, ignition, etc), because that's the first thing I'm going to address, and if you do not I cannot help you.

    John
    Aircooled.Net Inc.

    this gave me the idea of using a 125 main jet and 45 idle jet and it works great. after after adjusting the idle mixture screw to stop the lean condition at 1100 rpm. it runs perfect. how i stopped the lean condition i adjusted the idle screw up to 1100 rpm and it was shuddering. i backed out the air mixture screw a 1/4 turn and the shudder was gone. backed off the idle screw to 1000 rpm and idle is nice and smooth. this carburetor feels like a solex when starting off and when you got the solex wide open you still got the secondaries to open up and when they do hold on. a nice increase in power. the solex is like the weber with no secondaries and less power on top end. my top speed on the solex was 28. top speed on weber was 30 and still climbing when i let off the gas. too fast for the average person. the solex was running perfect right out of the box but some may need a larger main jet. my first choice would be the weber second the solex. i have tried out board carburetors rotax mikuni carbs and the factory carburetor is the worst of all flooding and just ran like crap.
    Last edited by bgmcl60; 08-31-2017 at 02:11 PM.

  20. #60
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: bgmcl60 Build

    that is interesting, tying to remember all the different articles that i read last winter,
    where Redline is suggesting a lot richer settings, that they recommend for the suzuki 1.3 liter engine. and this was the kit that they recommend that i purchase.
    but from the information from the Samba web site. ( for a VW 1600 cc motor w/no heated manifold) is actually a lot closer to where you are finding that it needs to be.
    it looks like I will be needing to look at what jets I purchased last winter, and put in an order for some leaner jets.
    last night i started to clean out a spot so i can try to play catch up with you, but i don't know if it will happen. ( i think you have left me in the dust)
    I just hope that some of the information that i looked up is helping out.
    the line format didn't quit line up like is did on the excel sheet.
    but on carb jetting diagram that i put added a couple of posts ago. the jetting notes in red ,
    H is for the heated VW carb specs.
    and NOH is for the not heated carb specs that was on the Samba page.
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