Another project to play with

[Bart]

the latest direction that i am going.
is to invert the cuyuna motor and put it on the small hull. this will give me the lowest center of gravity
there may be a issue with it being to small, but i have visited with a few, on how to rectify the situation without building a complete new hull.
so maybe here in a few weeks i will know a little better in what direction this is going to take me.
i can see the lighter motor with what i have being a better match-up. and if it is to unsteady, i will look into widening the hull a little.

with my 4A084 motor, i will be slowly putting the rest of it together. hope to have a stand for it also, to be sitting on before to long, ( if nothing else, it is a lot easier to move them around, ) when they are on a stand,
just having the Cuyuna motor on the EMT stand at the moment. makes it so much easier to get a better visual of what is needing to take place.

but on a better note, the kids were out on the 4-Wheelers the other day, one of them ended up rolling, after turning to sharp to go down a small embankment. all i know is that somebody upstairs was looking after them.
it really makes a person stop and realize what is more important, material items can always be replaced,
I even had some good father/daughter time, as we attempted straighten out some of the parts and pieces that didn't fair to well.
to many times we take for granted that we or our family all will come home, safe and sound, after each adventure.

[Corky]

Hi Bart, glad to hear nobody was hurt with the tumble...
I used a 110 volt mig that uses .023 wire for my stand and cage...I can keep the heat down where it just gets the job done without too much heat transfer...The longer it takes to cool the better...I burnt myself a few times as I welded different joints around the rigging so I knew it was'nt cooling too fast and making the tubing brittle...I did a test originally and the tubing bent long before the welds gave it up...Now stick welding on the other hand, you deal with no shielding gas making for some dirty welds and the major heat transfer as you've mentioned...

There's been a few NOS 084 heads for sale on Ebay here and there but a steady supply of them...Right now there's an overrun of NOS 084 cylinder jugs on there for sale...The hot rodder in me wants to buy some and modify them for more HP but I'll wait and save that fun for a later date...

Funny you should mention those manifold tube seals I changed out the original style corbin clamps for some stainless steel band clamps to make sure they were sealed up tight...I too saw the potential for trouble there...

[Bart]

I have a friend that will loan me his mig welder, until I find one, kind of hard to keep the fund going, when small things get in the way, but it could have been a lot worse,

Corky you are always coming up with things that I should know, seem to keep forgetting, maybe I am just getting to excited, at seeing some progress, and keep forgetting some simple checks.
Living so far away, and for 50 dollars, these gensets will give me a lot of extra parts, the fun part is just finding a good place to store them.
I to have been looking at what others have tried on these motors, some talk about shaving the heads to bump up the compression from the 6.5 to 1. Stock ratio, at least that is what I remember reading.
I keep reading about the head bolts being weak, and don't like the extra heat so much when you raise the compression. Then someplace else a person stated that the next weak link was the rod bolts.
I guess these air cooled motors have a few limits that may not liked to be messed with.
I was looking at using the intake setups off of the 2A042's and trying the dual carb aftermarket version that are being put on the VW's.
It is fun to think of all the things that have been tried. It just seems like most are having the best success with modifying the air flow, with carbration and exhaust.
But at least I have a few replacement parts I hand, for when I do have something that doesn't go to well.

[Papee]

Mark is keeping an eye out for me for heads. If he hears of any bulk buys on them he is going to let me know.

[Bart]

put together a stand for the Cuyuna motor with it inverted, and after looking at for a while just didn't like how it was looking,
I had always been assuming that if it was upside down, it would lower the center of gravity, in the boat. a couple of problems that a friend has with his inverted motor, is the plugs are always fouled, after it sits.
sure enough I pulled a plug and it was full of residual oil that found its way to the lowest point. and also all the porting is slanted upward.

so turned the motor over to see how much I would be able to cut off the stand and still have everything working.
it was almost 10 inches that I could lower the stand, and after thinking about the weight issue, the heaviest part of the motor is in the lower end,
I am feeling a lot more comfortable with the base a 10 inches lower.
but as you can see the prop is really looking big compared to the boat.
now i just need to take it over to a pond and see how it looks in the water. and that should give many of the answers for a few of the questions that i have about this.
looking back, i have had this hull for over 5 years, and haven't tried to see if it will even float.
one thing that I am liking about this hull, is the C channel that was put on the bottom edges of the hull,

[Bart]

Too much fun, the boat actually can float,

[Bart]

some day i will learn which is up on the phone when taking pictures.
using the c-channel for a reference. the back of the boat was drawing 1-1/2" at the stern, with the kid. with me it was a good 3". it is interesting what an extra 35 pounds will do.
sitting on dry ground, the hull didn't feel to stable. but when in the water not to bad. I actually felt kind of comfortable while rowing around. really didn't want to rock it to much with the motor stand, not attached to the hull. still almost thinking about splitting the hull, but i am leaning towards getting a cage put together, and just taking it out on the water to see what it really will do.
there are a few variables, still to verify, the prop came with 15 degree blocks, and i will need to see if that will keep my RPM's in check. the books say max RPM should be 6500, but it has been recommended, that i should not go over 6000.
and the people from competition valley props, think i might need to go up to the 18 degree blocks to keep the RPM in check. (from the information that i have given them.)
at times i wish the rotation would be the same for both the motors, where i could use the warp drive prop. (where i could adjust the pitch of the blades, by just turning them.) i guess that is what you get when you have 2 different directions to go.
but then i have heard a rumor of a 6' x 12' aluminum hull for a mini, a couple of weeks ago. just waiting for pictures and to get in contact with the owner.
i am just glad the i don't have to many more decisions. and that life is as simple as we make it. i just cant believe that the summer solstice is almost here, time is going by fast. but i am really enjoying the journey and the information that i have learned, man it is just fun to see a project, that i have been sitting on for over 5 years, starting to really take shape

[Rollbar]

If you have a iPhone, put the volume controls to the bottom where your thumb would rest, then it will be in the right position.

[Corky]

Bart, that engine should make that hull fly !! Not sitting too bad..You could certainly run it as is....You're right, splitting the hull and widening it would be a good thing but a major undertaking for sure...Ultimately you need to be the judge of how stabil the hull is and if it's needed...

[Papee]

I'm sure once you get some weight in it, battery, fuel tank etc. it will make a difference. The green boat felt the same way when I tested it with nothing in it. After it was finished there was a big difference with the final weight.

[Bart]

well a little more has progressed, when I was given this hull it had a cage, but last summer I gave it to a friend that is thinking about building a hover craft with his son,
in many ways I am glad I did that, I could see a lot of headache in trying to adapt a cage to fit a different motor. you would think that you might could salvage some of it to save time, but after putting this together I am glad that I am beginning from scratch.
it takes a little thinking to get all the radiuses and joints fitted somewhat right.
tried cutting the fish eyes with a router setup. it worked okay, but only on the straight pieces, I ended having better luck with a 4 inch grinder with a tiger paw disc on it. to get the custom fish eyes made. which so far has been almost every cut.
then I added a lip onto the back of the boat, it is riveted on at the moment,
have one rudder almost finished, they were pretty light until I put the end pieces on. they are weighing in at around 13 lbs. each. for bushings I am taking some 3/8 brass pipe fittings, threading the 3/4" aluminum pipe that I have for the pivot point. and they appear to fit alright. and a 7/16 th bolt will fit just right, to mount it to the frame.

just looking at how everything is lining up, I probably will move everything forward about 4 inches, I am thinking that there is just to much weight on the stern.

just throwing out a question. I am using 1/8 rod to fill in the gaps, on the cage, every where I see that the rod is tacked to the outside of the EMT.
I was playing around and drilling 1/8 holes in the emt, then sticking the rod in the holes. then tacking them.

I will be drilling a small hole at all the low end of all the separate runs. just in case water does find its way in, so it will drain out. ( I have seen to many allegedly piping that is water tight, expand and break during the winter.)

I have been tossing it around whether to use both rudders or just one, with this hull being so small. after visiting with a few, I will assemble it with both the rudders and see what it does.
from what I have read, if I am understanding it correctly, I will be wanting to keep 5 to 6 inches between the leading point of the rudder and the back of the prop.
please let me know if I am correct on this.

[Rollbar]

Went to a new ABoat shop today/grand opening and they had a verity of boats/new/used and I checked the rudders and the pivot points were 5"-6" from the leading edge of the rudder. All boats were either car or A/C.

[Corky]

That's a good looking cage Bart...Yes, as stated your 5-6 inch offset on the rudders will be fine...There's a general formula out there somewhere for that leading edge pivot point{compared to the rudder's width} but for our applications it's safe to go with that...

You need to be more concerned with sealed joints and/or some type of drainage on the cage more so than some of us that will never see operating under freezing temps with our rigs...Any help is good help to keep from frost wedging and breaking the structures...
Looks like you've got the right idea for the rear splash tray it looks right at home back there...Keep up the good work !!!

[Bart]

well I have been having fun with the rudder end pieces
with out having access to a aluminum mig welder, I have been practicing with stick welding aluminum. it is kind of fun. it can get you by in a pinch, but if I had a aluminum mig set up, life would be simpler.
anyway, I had used silicon to hold the ends on. but once I put a little heat to attach the cover end pieces, the aluminum ends started separating from the foam. not good,
I really didn't want to discard the rudder and start over,
after a few days of thinking about how to secure the end pieces so they don't start flapping. the center and front of the rudder are good with the 2 rods traveling all the way through them. it was making me wish I would have put an 3rd rod in the rudder.
but that was not realistic, unless I was wanting to start over.
at the moment I was only thinking that the only way to securely attach the ends so the wouldn't keep spreading apart, was to try to tack weld it. tried the stick aluminum rod on a few scrap pieces, and it just melted though.
it is amazing what a little strap and rivets will do to hold things together. sometimes the solutions to small hiccups are pretty simple.
so the pictures are showing the gap, showing the strap that I put on the front and back of the unfinished rudder, separating the tail of the finished rudder to slide in a strap. and then the finished product.
with not an feasible method to get to the front of the rudder to put a strap on it, for had already welded the top plate to the pivot & through bar. I ended up welding an thicker piece to the front part of the rudder, so it wouldn't flex, like the tail end

[Rollbar]

I was told from a local, that those who run small motors like the 084 usually use a 1/8" flat sheet/sized/some bracing for rudders since the 084 won't make that much difference with the airfoil type rudder.

Anyone care to comment?

[Bart]

the local is probably correct, and from what others have talked about on this forum. either/or will work.
it usually is dictated by what materials, the builder has on hand, and the time they have to put into it.

my little project came with a flat sheet for a rudder, and if I had stuck with that, I would never have learned a lot of the things that I know now.
but I wanted to see I could make the foil rudders that I am working on.
back in the day, just to get the boats going, plywood is a good substitute also.
I am having more fun, learning different ways of making things work.
that is what I have enjoyed most about this forum. is to see the ideas that have worked, and not so good ideas that have been brought up.
I was kind of bummed out, abut how small my hull was, but after seeing a new posting a month or so ago, with a boat as small or smaller that what I have, I got pretty excited about, getting this in the water, just to see if it is going to work or not.
any way enjoy the journey

[Bart]

Managed to get a little time to put the rudders on, there are a lot of little things that i have learned. From the first rudder to the second one, someday I might get it right the first go around. But that would take all fun out of it. I love this weather, these pictures were taken at 11:00 pm tonight, but we are losing 5 minutes of daylight every day now.
I made the rudder mounts out SS unistrut, I like how they turned out. between rebuilding 4 wheelers, and car motors, it has been a busy week.
I decided to get fancy with my drag link, a lite weight titanium steering arm from an old snow machine,
Ended up moving every thing forward about 4 inches
Now I just need to make up the steering linkage, seat mount, fuel tank, and throttle linkage. them it will be test time.
This has been a fun project, and I have learned a lot, almost can't wait to find time and start on the second build.

[Corky]

Hi Bart...Those long days would take some getting accustomed to...It makes it nice to get some work done though...I like that titanium link it does the job nicely...The build is progressing fast....

As Aerokirk has pointed out in a previous thread the airfoil rudders cut down on the turbulence of the edges{during turning} compared to a flat sheet...My theory was being a smaller engine it needs all the help it can get to move the air effeciently at all times...And the cool factor is a plus too...The downside is the time,cost and design of making them work compared to the simpler flat sheet fabricating and fasteners...I've got a plywood rudder on my old mini and it needs changed out about every 7-10 years...

[Bart]

thought i would give a little update on this project. so last fall i ran out of time. and it might have been a little cold feet also. just have been not liking having a 4' wide boat bottom. so this winter i picked up a 5 x 12 sheet of aluminum. and have been waiting for the snow to melt, my shed just isn't big enough to even think about splitting the hull and adding some width to it.
i have been tossing back and forth to, either weld or rivet the piece in.
then these last couple of weeks i have been doing a lot of searching on the web, about pulley redrive systems, and dreaming up a setup for my 084 motor, when i came across this web page
http://waterbugairboats.com/index.php , and the boat that they have on this build has a hull that is very close to what i have. on top of that they posted a 5 minute video of it running on a lake.
if i would have came across this last fall, it probably would have given me enough answers in my mind, that i would have this project in the water.
on top of this, it is warming up. and even though we have received over 2 feet of snow this last week. it is in the mid thirties and what snow we have left is starting to melt.
i never thought i would say i am glad to see the snow start to go. it is a bitter sweet time of the year.

[Corky]

That boat moves along great !!! See how the bottom is actually wider than the sidewall at the top ??? Somehow they've tapered the sidewall going from the wide bottom inward then up to a narrow gunnel...I would'nt think that would work so well but there's the proof...