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Thread: Another project to play with

  1. #1
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Another project to play with

    about 6 years ago, a brother gave me an mini airboat hull, with a old hirth 460 motor( that was missing some important parts)
    for what ever reason in all the searches on the web, i never came across this site untill last fall, man talk about lots of answers & information that is on these pages,
    anyway, this project has been mainly just a dream, and last fall i was ready to get rid of everything, then i came across an old Cuyuna motor 460F-45 with the gearbox and prop. for a good price, picked it up, tore it down and got it running. then i came across the Mini Airboat page here.
    then back in december i came across a 4a084 bare motor for real good deal, the seller had 5 airboats in Wassilla, and not enough time to acomplish all the dreams.
    I have been dealing with 2 stroke motors for the last 25 years with Snowmachines, and still am trying to figure out which motor to use on this hull
    both put out about 45 ponies, for fuel consumption, the Cuyuna will burn over 2 gallons an hour. but only weighs 70 lbs. with the motor, gear drive, and prop.
    and the 4A084 it has been discussed quite regular.
    as always i thought the aluminum hull was a lot bigger than it was, at the moment it is leaning against the shed, buried in about a foot of ice, and 4 feet of snow on top. been cold and rainy this winter, so it will be a little before i get at it. but it is 11 X 4 ft, with 16" sides. looks kind of tippy for the heaver motor.
    oh the things we collect, and the fun we have with the choices we make.
    at the moment i may build a motor frame for both engines and see what happens.
    a couple of questions on the mounting locations for the 4a084 motor, at the moment it looks like a direct drive, but i would like to build the frame so that down the road i could change over to that fancy Circle S Redrive, where would i find a template for the 3 motor mounting holes
    been looking at Corky's build on page 11, if he would be willing to give out the magic numbers off that template that would be awsome.
    enough talking about me, maybe I hope to be able to contribute a few small things once in while, to make up for all the information that i have learned the last couple of months.
    have a great day , we have 4 feet of fresh powder on the mountain, it is hard to get to serious when there is sunshine and fresh powder
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  2. #2
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    Hi Bart, well it seems you have some good choices for a powerplant...I see the 084 has a ring gear on the front...I'll dig out the measurements for the 3 point engine stand..I know Aerokirk has the measurements also I discussed it with him when I was at that phase of the build...

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  3. #3
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    o the ring gear, i took that off of a snowmachine clutch, have a few of them around.
    honed it out, so it would fit on the inside. but then the snowmobile starter motor, will crank it over with out the plugs, but
    really didnt want to do much but smoke once i had compression.
    when i pick up a motor to work on, first things i like to to, check compression, spark, then make some noise.
    have a sore shoulder, tried to pull it a few times, and left it at that.
    have a hub coming in from Arrow Prop, should be here later this week,
    now the choices are to get a 9 tooth starter with a reduction gear in it,for the front.
    or put a flex plate on the back of the motor and go that way. (like the green machine)
    or sell some toys and get in line for a Circle S drive, (which might be a year or two down the road.)

  4. #4
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    an other good one, if you see the oil line to the govenor doesnt have a cap on it. it does shoot oil out about 10 feet. just when cranking it over, in case anyone is wondering. (at least my boy had his mouth closed)

  5. #5
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    ...I bet that was an eye opener !! One thing about the 084 there's plenty of choices to fit anyone's needs and the starter configuration is no exception...I see your plug wires have the rubber coating...I've seen that on a few other engines...I wonder what application called for that style of wires ???

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  6. #6
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    Hi Bart,
    Here's the 4A084/Circle S three point engine mounting footprint...The front mount is dropped one inch from the two rear mounting points...That will give you 3/8 to 1/2 inch of adjustment to lower the front mount{relative to hull} when you need to fine tune your build...Start with a 1/2 inch {+ or-} stack of washers under the front mount to bring the hull and drivetrain parallel to each other as a starting point then you can add or subtract them as needed...
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    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  7. #7
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    it has been a busy last couple of months, progress is slow with family and other activities taking up a lot of week nights.
    but there has been some progress. finally got with a good friend who has a mill & a lathe,
    milled out an adaptor to go on the hub. to put a little space from the flywheel,
    for the last couple of weeks, spent looking at how to mount the chevy starter motor, with the materials at hand
    and last night made a rough mock-up of what might work, now just need to transfer the design to a longer piece of angle, so I can get a couple of mounting bolts to the back of the engine. and fab up a couple of stiffener brackets to the inside of the angle.
    I think I have been able to attach some pictures, I will have to see if they upload.

    I was looking at putting a snowmobile starter on the front, but none of the starters that I had, had enough life left in them to turn over the engine, once the spark plugs were installed.
    so I decided to go this route. by this time next week I hope to hear it running

    question, I am looking at anodizing most of the aluminum that is on the prop & hub.

    looking at some of the parts on the motor, I would like to do as well.
    like the valve covers, front timing cover, the intake manifold and tubes, and the push rod tubes
    these all appear to be aluminum also.
    or are some of these made out of cast pot metal?
    to save the headache of cleaning all the paint off of the engine parts, I might put in an order to Saturn Surplus, just in case things go wrong.

    just seeing if anyone has tried this route for making the motor stand out a little more
    have a good week, we just got 2 feet of snow, and more is said to be on the way, so much for the nice sunny weather we had 2 weeks ago.
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  8. #8
    Super Moderator Corky's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    Hi Bart, nice hub !! The valve covers are cast aluminum...Intake runners are high grade aluminum...Not sure on the pushrod tubes or the front timing chain cover someone that has disassembled those pieces hopefully will chime in...Time to get the magnet out and see what you've got there.... Do you have a local shop that does annodizing ??? Annodizing is a great idea here's something to think about... I've had some automotive trim annodized and it was actually more expensive than the chrome plating...Hopefully you've got a place in mind that will give you a deal on the process...I know some companies will wait until they have X amount of parts on the rack for annodizing and you could get a deal if they want that batch filled...
    Last edited by Corky; 03-17-2016 at 09:35 PM.

    Aluminum .120 14' X 76" hull
    Teledyne 4a084-4 engine
    Circle S 1.69:1 reduction
    67" Whirlwind "Razor X" prop



  9. #9
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    I have a friend that has gotten into anodizing in his garage, just have to buy the dyes, the funest part will be getting the parts free of the oil and grease, then deciding what colors I want to go with.
    I was hoping that most of the parts are caste aluminium, if there are different metals in the casting, from what I have read, when you put it in the battery acid, it will dissolve the other metals. So I guess I will find out

  10. #10
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    PROP QUESTION
    I have an older composite prop that came with the hirth motor. just wondering if anyone might have seen this style before, there are not any markings on it to even know who made it.
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  11. #11
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    finished up most of the starter motor mount last night. it looks like it might work. there is a little play on the end of the starter, but the end is almost in line with the center bolt on the oil pan, just need to make a little bracket to stiffen it up, and should be good to go.
    only had to elongate one of the holes,
    next step, mounting brackets to connect to the frame.
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  12. #12
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    well i found out from some numbers that were on the end of the prop, that this is a warp drive prop. And was made back in 1990, and as normal i have it on with the hub plates backwards, now back to the mill and bore out the center hole on the plate i didn't do the first time,
    I was very impressed that the folks at Warp Drive still had access to records from 1990 and were able to give me the manufacture specs for this prop.

  13. #13
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    tried starting it up the other night, and found out why the starter had been sitting on the shelf, for the last couple of years, tore it apart, cleaned up the armature and every thing was looking good, you just don't want to have a finger next to the brushes when you pull them off the end of the armature. the springs are kind of strong.

    put it all back together, and it worked, put it on the motor, cranked it over, had to look at the spark plug wiring, a couple of times. ended up pulling off the valve covers, turning it over by hand to see when the # 1 cylinder was at TDC, i am glad that i remembered something from auto mechanics back in high school, the # 1 wire, was on the bottom right hand corner of the mag, for this motor. sitting here at the computer, i am thinking, that i could have pulled off the plate where the governor was, to double check. i will do that tomorrow. hind site is such a fun thing.
    while cranking it over there really wasn't much flexing on the starter motor, that makes it simple, but i think a small stiffener wouldn't hurt, just to save future problems.

    then it finally fired off. i was thinking here we go. and yep there it went, my remote starter switch gave up the ghost, and the solenoid for the starter decided it had enough also.
    but at least i got to listen to the motor for a couple of minutes,
    checking on solenoid prices, it looks like ebay will be the ticket,

    in the meantime it looks the anodizing dye came in and, so sometime soon we will see how it goes, reading up on anodizing a little more the cast aluminum has a lot of silicone and other metals in it, so the anodizing of cast aluminum may not be such a great idea. but the rest of the stuff, hopefully it turns out.

    last weekend was fun we received a foot of snow on Friday, and then 2 feet on Saturday, now it is back to the mid forties and melting pretty quick.

    one more question to throw out there, i know from my snowmachines, that the stator on them puts out plenty of juice for the lighting. The only problem that i have with the 4 wheelers and snowmachines is with the small batteries. you are lucky to get more than 2 years out of them. but the charging system, has never let me down.

    i see a few different options that everyone has tried, and am wondering what is working the best?
    A: rewiring the stator to 12 volts, down from the factory 24 volt.
    B: wiring in a rectifier, to bring down the out put voltage to 12 volts.
    C: or building a small bracket and installing a small alternator.

    thanks for having a place to post the fun and entertainment that these projects give,

  14. #14
    Member Rollbar's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    Subscribed.

  15. #15
    Administrator Papee's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    I've used an external generator on my boat, it didn't really lose any power from running the extra belt. With that said it is another part to go bad and more expense. I've been using the stock stator with a rectifier off an Onan generator and it's worked fine for the last 3-4 years or so. I forget when I put it oon.
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  16. #16
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    thanks, it is good to keep things simple, reading some of the older posts in the wiring thread, where this has been discussed quite frequently, from what I understand, with the voltage regulator/rectifier the stator will only put out 12 amps.
    or am I reading this wrong?

    (Fortunately, there's an easy, simple solution. Key West Controls makes a nice solid state voltage regulator/rectifier that works very well with the 4A084's alternator. Together they'll provide a 12 amp, 13.8 volt DC charging system, which is what we need for a 12 volt electrical system.)

    I am used to the stators on the 4-wheelers and snowmachines that are putting out around 500 watts or 40amps. which about half of this goes to running the motor, which leaves around 20 amps for the lights and accessories.

    where the 4A084 doesn't need any power source to keep running, but 12 amps is kind of on the lite side of the equation.
    Last edited by Bart; 03-26-2016 at 06:55 PM. Reason: to save time in trying to find the other post

  17. #17
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    the fun continues, finally was able o mill out the correct side of the hub plate , my friend picked up some more toys to play with on his mill. he is going to be a bad influence, I would like to see something like this in my collection in a couple of years.
    then as I was leaving he happened to let me know that he has polishing set up, that I could borrow.
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  18. #18
    Junior Member Bart's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    so I took the buffing /polishing supplies, an I just needed do something, so I started on one the intake tubes. a while back I had taken them off, and smoothed out the weld build up on the inside, so there would be better air flow.
    anyway, on the one I took off, there was a pile of JB weld on the casting, I hadn't really thought much about it. until I found out why,
    it started polishing up real nice, but there was a little bit of wax getting left on it. so I took it in the house to wash it off with some hot soap an water, and with the heat a tang fell off.
    I don't the story, of how it got broke, but JB weld can be helpful in a pinch. it was better to find the problem now, than down road and have a burned up piston
    the repair didn't turn out to bad.
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    Last edited by Bart; 03-26-2016 at 08:24 PM.

  19. #19
    Administrator Papee's Avatar
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    Re: Another project to play with

    As far as the charging, remember the 084 runs off the magneto which is its own power source for spark. The stator is only for charging.
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  20. #20
    Member Rollbar's Avatar
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    Bart, maybe you can fab up a alternator bracket like shown if you want to run more juice etc.




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