4A084 starter

[Duane Scarborough]

I tried to add this to the original thread, but the new forum would not let me.

OK guys,

Let me be the one to bring an old thread back to life.

Here I am, with my hat shamefully in my hand.

I know that I bad-mouthed Buster's design. Shame on me.

I must apologize to Buster. He did have a pretty good idea.

The starter/generator idea sure sounded good, but it has it's problems. Yeah, it sorta'/almost works, but it's not very reliable.

I thought, (and still think) that the 102 tooth Harley ring gear/Chrysler style starter that Chuck came up with was (is) a good idea.

The problem is that it requires major modifications to the Arrow Prop reduction drive.

Ain't nothing really wrong with that, but for me to go to that now, it'd also require me to make cage modifications, and I wouldn't be able to use the VW/Solex carb.

(I may eventually go with the Kehien CV side draft carb, but ain't ready yet.)

I'm reluctant to make all of those changes right now. If I was starting from scratch, that might be the way I'd go. But I'm too far along...

So, I had the 102 tooth Harley ring gear out there, and was trying to figure out what to do. Nothing that I came up with made sense.

Then I thought about Buster's design again, and thought about using the Subaru starter (that was still on the shop shelf) with the 102 tooth Harley ring gear on the alternator end of the crankshaft.

When I held those 2 in place, (the Harley ring gear, and the Subaru starter) it just wouldn't work. BUT, if I used a 14" diameter flex plate/ring gear it could work, without blocking the airflow.

Buster and I had that conversation a WHILE back.

So I'm back to that idea now.

Thanks,

Duane

[buster]

Duane,

First of all, Apology accepted.

Second, I went out to measure the diameter of my ring gear, since the 14" dia. you mentioned seemed awfully big. I couldn't quite get at the ring gear, but I measured the guard, and that is 11" O.D., and it looks to have about 1/2" clearance all around.

My thinking is the ring gear must be about 10" diameter total. I am sure a 14" gear would work good, but if smaller will work, why go that big? My starter has very little clearance to the engine block, however that cylinder seems to cool a tad better than the rest for some reason. That 14" gear may even block some air flow

Just my two cents,
Dave

[Papee]

Just a little clarification, the starter generator in my opinion is not unreliable. I have over 300 hours on mine and it has never let me sit. I did however experience hard starts at times but I remedied this by shortening the battery cables. This is not to say that Buster's idea may be better. I just don't want people getting the wrong idea about the starter generator setups, they do work if set up right. Unless you have more information that I don't know about that is.

Edit: also in a days fishing I may start my boat 30-40 times to move around.

[Duane Scarborough]

Duane,

First of all, Apology accepted.

Second, I went out to measure the diameter of my ring gear, since the 14" dia. you mentioned seemed awfully big. I couldn't quite get at the ring gear, but I measured the guard, and that is 11" O.D., and it looks to have about 1/2" clearance all around.

My thinking is the ring gear must be about 10" diameter total. I am sure a 14" gear would work good, but if smaller will work, why go that big? My starter has very little clearance to the engine block, however that cylinder seems to cool a tad better than the rest for some reason. That 14" gear may even block some air flow

Just my two cents,
Dave

Buster,

I guess that I had my mouth ahead of my brain again. Yeah, after I thought about it some, I agree that 14" is pretty big. I had that on my mind because I'd looked at a 14" Chevy flexplate a while back.

I guess what I should have said was that for now I'm going to stick with the starter/generator, but I'm back to looking at other options.

Thanks,

Duane

[Duane Scarborough]

Just a little clarification, the starter generator in my opinion is not unreliable. I have over 300 hours on mine and it has never let me sit. I did however experience hard starts at times but I remedied this by shortening the battery cables. This is not to say that Buster's idea may be better. I just don't want people getting the wrong idea about the starter generator setups, they do work if set up right. Unless you have more information that I don't know about that is.

Edit: also in a days fishing I may start my boat 30-40 times to move around.

Papee,

You do know that I suffer from foot in mouth disease, right?

I probably should have save something like MY starter/generator doesn't seem to be as strong as I WISH that it was, and I worry that it'll leave me stranded.

However, in my defense, I think that I remember Ron Paxton recently saying something about being on his 3rd starter/generator.

Yeah, they do work. Just not as good as I'd hoped.

I'm going to stick with it until I figure out something that I feel more comfortable with.

Re-working the reduction drive isn't on that list.

Thanks,

Duane

[n4wsp]

Go Ahead and rework the re-drive. It is no big deal. If i can do it any body can. mine works grate

Thanks Steve

[Papee]

Papee,

You do know that I suffer from foot in mouth disease, right?

I probably should have save something like MY starter/generator doesn't seem to be as strong as I WISH that it was, and I worry that it'll leave me stranded.

However, in my defense, I think that I remember Ron Paxton recently saying something about being on his 3rd starter/generator.

Yeah, they do work. Just not as good as I'd hoped.

I'm going to stick with it until I figure out something that I feel more comfortable with.

Re-working the reduction drive isn't on that list.

Thanks,

Duane

LOL I just enjoy stepping on your tail once in a while. You know my memory, I know Chuck was working on a problem with Rons starter. I'm not ready to call it because of that. I know my problem was partly created by me, I had a bad connection and got a bit of corrosion. I'm hard on mine and I'm happy with it so far. Would I rather have a real starter? Sure but marching to my own drummer(direct drive), I am on my own most of the time. I don't want to clog up this thread about the new improved starter set up with facts though so carry on.

[Duane Scarborough]

Go Ahead and rework the re-drive. It is no big deal. If i can do it any body can. mine works grate

Thanks Steve

Steve,

I may end up doing just that, eventually.

But to do so right now would involve re-working a lot of what I've just got done.

I'm just not willing to do that right now.

The starter/generator works. So I'm going to stick with it for a little while.

Thanks,

Duane

[bowhunterfl]

when i called chuck he told me that he does not use the starter/generator anymore and did one like yall are talking about, but that he has never tried it on an 032 so im still going to try and use the one that i got from the junk guy for $2 and rebuild it. i did i little more looking and found out that if i dont use it as a generator that it will last longer and will not get hot and will not pull as much power witch is the best point for me. is this true?

[Duane Scarborough]

bowhunterfl,

I suspect that a starter/generator may work a lot better on a 4A032 than on a 4A084.

That engine is less than half as big. So it should be a LOT easier to start.

The starter/generators were never designed for BIG engines.

Of course, relatively speaking, the 4A084 is still a pretty small engine.

The starter/generators were used on a lot of small displacement 1 and 2 cylinder engines, that ran at a max RPM of about 3600. An interesting historical thing is that by changing polarity, they could be used on 2 cycle golf carts to provide either forward or reverse. Those old golf carts didn't have a transmission. To go in reverse, you started and ran the engine backwards.

But they DO work on a 4A084. Just not with as much "umph" as I'd like.

Keep in mind though, that not all starter/generators are the same. Some have much more "umph" than others. Your $2 deal may work great. Or you may need to shop around a little for one a little stronger.

Don't scrimp on either your battery or your cable size, and you should be OK.

I'd recommend that you keep the original alternator for charging, and only use the starter/generator as a STARTER. It keeps the wiring a little simpler, and will make future troubleshooting simpler as well. But that's just my opinion.

Duane

[buster]

Bowhunter,

I know Duane said that some Starter/generators are more powerful than others. That is probably correct, but when I was trying that setup, I remember talking to a dealer that sold a lot of them. He looked it up for me, and he found that they were all rated the same.

I'm not quite sure where the power difference comes from, but that is what he said. I don't know what to look for to find a strong one The one I have will not turn my 084 one complete revolution, unless I hit the switch multiple times. That is why I went with a subaru starter.

Good luck, Dave