ZINC additives

[Duane Scarborough]

Hey guys,

Buster suggested that I do some research on zinc (and phosphorous) additives, so here's a little of what I've found so far.

The 4A084 is really an old engine design, using a flat tappet cam. When it was designed and built, the zinc content of motor oil was much higher than it is today. Why did they use zinc in the first place? Because it reduces the wear of high pressure metal to metal surfaces, like a flat tappet cam.

So why did the oil manufacturers reduce the zinc? Mostly because most modern engines do not use flat tappet cams, and because the zinc causes problems with the catalytic converters common on all modern gasoline engined automobiles.

Should we use zinc additives in our engines? Good question, Buster. Since we can't readily buy the oil that was meant to be used in our engines when they were built, should we use zinc additives to "restore" it to that zinc level? That's a hard question.

I've never seen an airboat with a catalytic converter, so that is not a concern for us.

Here's some info to consider:

From "Engine Builder":

"It’s more than a coincidence that engine builders have experienced more flat tappet cam failures in the last few years than at any point prior. And that’s because today’s engine oil has a lower amount of anti-wear additives than your flat tappet cam requires in order to keep it spinning freely".

Here's a link to their story.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti..._got_zinc.aspx

It's good info, and well worth reading, but it still leaves some questions.

I think that THIS link has some of the best info that I've found.

http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/am..._high_zinc.htm

Amsoil's Original Premium Protection 10W40 is "Heavily fortified with zinc/phosphorus anti-wear additives for maximum protection."

It doesn't need additives, because it's already in there.

I've never used Amsoil, so don't have any reason to promote it, other than it being formulated back when the 4A084 was still in production.

I'm about brain dead from all of the reading that I did on this.

So you guys are welcome to look into it further...

Duane

[n4wsp]

I use 15/40 diesel oil witch has more zinc than other oil's

Steve

[Duane Scarborough]

Steve,

Yeah, I read about that a little too. That may be a more economical solution, because AMSOIL is not cheap, at about $9.00 a quart.

I'll look at that some more when I have time.

Thanks,

Duane

[chuckitt]

We took a 4.3 V6 that had set up a few years and the valves were sticking. We added a bottle of Lucas Zinc Plus and let it run for about 30 minutes. It ran as smooth as a new motor. For the new motors, it should be removed at the oil change and not put back in. I will probably run it in the 084.
Thanks, Chuck

[buster]

Duane,

Thanks for doing the research on the zinc, etc., good job! I knew you are a lot better at that stuff than I am.

Now that I see it in print, I remember the speed shop that did my sbc build recommended Brad Penn oil, because of the zinc.

Thanks,
Dave

[orange krush]

Hey guy's,
I'll be running delo straight 30 + lucas oil stabilizer in the orange krush 084. Why? 25+ years experience running trucks, tractors, equipment, irrigation engines running under full load 24/7, gas, diesel, water cooled, air cooled, old, modern, whatever. Some engines with over 15000 hrs at this point, 300,000 miles on my powerstroke, still going strong.
I could go on but I'll stop there. Wanna see my scrap pile?
Thanx,
johnny

[Duane Scarborough]

Update. New information.

http://www.penngrade1.com/Zinc.aspx

Duane

[buster]

Duane,

Thanks for reminding about that, I think I'll pick up a few quarts of Brad Penn oil for the 1835 VW engine for the Tomcat. Because of build date of that engine, along with the adjustable tappets, I think it's a given that it needs the zinc.

Dave

[Duane Scarborough]

New information !

You guys can read it and then decide for yourself.

http://www.zddplus.com/

Duane

[buster]

Duane,

I think zinc additive is available now in most auto parts stores. I checked my local GTC the other day and they had it. I forgot what brand it was, I suppose their are several now.

I wonder if the additives are as good as oil with zinc already in it? But then, I guess added zinc is better than no zinc, after all. I really think we should use zinc, one way or the other in the 084s and the VWs.

Dave

[Duane Scarborough]

Buster,

The makers of the oil with zinc claim that it's better than an additive. But then the makers of the additives claim differently. I don't know who's right.

I suspect that the correct amount of a good additive is as good as the oils that come with it already in there. After all, those oil-with-zinc makers have to add it themselves, don't they?

The zddplus link has some interesting info on how we got to the zinc less situation, and why older flat tappet cam engines still need zinc.

Duane

Duane,

I think zinc additive is available now in most auto parts stores. I checked my local GTC the other day and they had it. I forgot what brand it was, I suppose their are several now.

I wonder if the additives are as good as oil with zinc already in it? But then, I guess added zinc is better than no zinc, after all. I really think we should use zinc, one way or the other in the 084s and the VWs.

Dave

[Corky]

I was just reading through this thread...I'll add my thoughts...I've used the zddplus to reduce wear in older high performance engines..Good stuff....The Eastwood company has their brand of the zinc additive now also...The diesel oils used to have more than enough zinc and anti-wear additives but they've been cut back even in the last few years{shell rotella still has one of the highest zinc content} so some are using them plus the additives..As stated Brad Penn and Amsoil are good oils also with some nice additive packages...

The cam and lifters are the main concern where the zinc and moly additives come into play..... Competition Cams has a break-in additive with a load of zinc,moly and other goodies to insure the cam and lifters don't die a sudden death which happens more frequent with high spring pressures but still applies to our engine applications also...Some guys run that additive with every oil change also...

Lastely, keep in mind even good running air cooled engines have "hot spots" that subject the oil to higher temps than a watercooled/regulated engine so it's even more important to use a good oil that won't break down and compromise the lubricating ability....Even the aircooled lawn mower dealers{kohler,briggs and stratton etc...} preach about the importance of using their brand of oil with the correct additive package for the job and claim a regular auto engine oil is'nt up to the task...

[krwsr]

I was just reading through this thread...I'll add my thoughts...I've used the zddplus to reduce wear in older high performance engines..Good stuff....The Eastwood company has their brand of the zinc additive now also...The diesel oils used to have more than enough zinc and anti-wear additives but they've been cut back even in the last few years{shell rotella still has one of the highest zinc content} so some are using them plus the additives..As stated Brad Penn and Amsoil are good oils also with some nice additive packages...

The cam and lifters are the main concern where the zinc and moly additives come into play..... Competition Cams has a break-in additive with a load of zinc,moly and other goodies to insure the cam and lifters don't die a sudden death which happens more frequent with high spring pressures but still applies to our engine applications also...Some guys run that additive with every oil change also...

Lastely, keep in mind even good running air cooled engines have "hot spots" that subject the oil to higher temps than a watercooled/regulated engine so it's even more important to use a good oil that won't break down and compromise the lubricating ability....Even the aircooled lawn mower dealers{kohler,briggs and stratton etc...} preach about the importance of using their brand of oil with the correct additive package for the job and claim a regular auto engine oil is'nt up to the task...

Just in on this tread to see what you guys are actually using? Great info on the zinc, makes a lot of reason for concern.

[Corky]

I've got a straight 30wt air cooled engine{kohler} oil and a bottle of zddplus that I'm going to use for the break-in...Here's my dusty beauty still in the crate...it's a 084-4 so it has the spin on filter and what appears to be the slick mag on it ...