084 Starter Generator Cranking

[chuckitt]

[youtube:rxnnrrtv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2uspIY4Yd4[/youtube:rxnnrrtv]

[Duane Scarborough]

Chuck,

I knew you'd come through. I wish I'd video'd Ron starting his boat back in April.

Airhead,

As you can see, a 4A084 doesn't have to spin very fast to start. If it did, it'd be impossible to rope start it, or hand prop it. The impulse magneto is what makes it possible to start with only a few RPMs.

The guys who use these engines on airplanes usually don't have starters, They hand prop them by turning the engine over a couple of times with the magneto off, to get some fuel rich air into the cylinders, then turn it over so that it's just before TDC, turn the magneto on, and start it with a short flip of the prop, using only thier finger tips.

Chuck,

Besides the pulley modification, please share what starter/generator that was.

Thanks,

Duane

[David]

Hey Duane them questions is top secret lol

[Duane Scarborough]

David,

We all have double naught top secret claerance here.

Duane

[David]

There has been a couple that has been tryed I will let fill you guys in

[chuckitt]

I don't know, I just work here. The part number was missing but it goes on the club car golf cart and it is a 4 pole. We took the 2.25 inch pulley off and put a 2 inch pulley on. With the 7 inch engine pulley, it works good. We are still trying to find a wholesale outlet for the parts so we can make up a kit.
Thanks, Chuck

[chuckitt]

Here is the Club Car Golf Cart wiring.

I hope this works. I hope to have the part #'s tomorrow.
Chuck

[airhead]

Hey Chuck,

Just wondering if these starters will turn the engine with the original pulley size? I tried a new golf cart starter and it would not turn the engine as good as the old cub cadet starters. I have tried to do research on the starters with not a lot of success. The golf cart starters are designed to crank in both directions whereas the others are designed to crank in only one. So do the four field windings help? I have installed the old Cub Cadet type on my motor and am going to try it as is. I think i will have to turn the prop to prime it but if i can get it to turn a couple of rounds it should crank. The golf cart starters i have do have bearings on both ends whereas the tractor starters only have a bearing on the business end.

I am posting this for info only on my end. I do understand ( from experiance ) that a customer does not want to turn the prop to prime etc...
Thanks, jim

[airhead]

Just to update the gen/starter business,

I am now cranking my 084 with the type starter that come on the old Cub Cadets. It only has the two field winding. The pulley is a little over two inches and I am using the original pulley on the engine. It puts a pretty good load on the starter and battery to get it started but once it turns over once it does fine. I will eventually hook the VAT machine to it and see exackley how many amps it is pulling.

This is just an update because I think Duane and maybe others might still be debating what to use.

There is another option that has crossed my mind; if the golf cart starters were rewired to use all four windings in one direction; would they be stronger? If someone has time i feel sure it can be done.

Jim

[Duane Scarborough]

Airhead,

Thanks for the update. I'm sure glad that it's working for you.

I'm not still debating what to use. I applaude Buster's success with his Subaru starter, because it sure seems to work great.

But I'm eventually (once I get my butt back into motion) going to TRY my 4 pole starter/generator. I was wishy washy as all heck for a while there, but came to a decision point. Right or wrong, I decided to try it this way.

If I can't figure out how to make it work, I'll try Buster's way. It's good to know I've got a backup plan if I need it.

Thanks,

Duane

[chuckitt]

These 2 flow charts may help to understand the Golf Cart Starter/Generater. Notice the Gas Pedal Switch, this can be a toggle switch or a key switch. When you turn it on the motor will crank and the switch must stay on or the generator want charge. It keeps the solenoid energized so the current can reverse and charge the battery.


I hope this helps. Maybe we will have the kits soon.
Thanks, Chuck

[airhead]

Thanks for the post Chuck. Honestly i'm still a little confused about the reverse cranking for a golf cart but i suppose if i saw the wiring on the cart it would help. And besides we don't need to crank backwards

And by the way the ceiling wire is welding fine.

[Duane Scarborough]

Chuck,

Thanks for those wiring diagrams. They're good for reference, but everyone needs to remember that just as there's more than one way to skin a cat, there's also more than one way to build and wire a starter / generator.

What I mean is there are lot's of variations to these animals. There's 2 pole, and 4 pole units, and some have 3 terminals, 4 terminals, and 5 terminals. The number of "poles", and the number of "terminals" don't mean the same thing.

Everyone needs to understand that, and understand that there is no one wiring diagram that is correct for all of them......

Airhead,

"Some" gasoline powered golf carts, (I think mostly older ones) have 2 cycle engines that can run in either direction. They have no transmission. Reverse is done by starting the engine BACKWARDS. No, we don't need or want that....

When you get a chance, please post some pictures of what yours ended up looking like.

Thanks,

Duane

[chuckitt]

I will try to get some pictures tomorrow.
The ones that were set up to run both directions would probably have 2 relays.
Chuck

[Wildfowl]

Good morning Chuck,

So about the starter switching... If I am picking up what you are laying down.. the starter can be easily connected to a toggle switch ok got that. Would that also mean that once you started the engine you could use the toggle to decide if you wanted to charge the system (on) or shut the generator down for more horse power to the prop (off) ? Or will the unit pull just as hard if it is on or off?

Thoughts?

[chuckitt]

Hey Wildfowl, I think so. Ours is hooked to an aircraft key switch. It has an extra circuit to ground the mag so when we turn it off the engine dies. If you put the mag on one toggle switch and the starter on another toggle, I think if you turned it off while running, it would quit charging and you may produce more power. Maybe someone on this site will try it and give us the RPM diff..
Thanks, Chuck