084 STARTER ALTERNATIVE

[buster]

I have tried several 084 starter solutions for my 084 engine, and I was not satisfied with any of them. The first of course the starter-generator, apparently my engine turns over harder than most. Next I made up a ring gear-flex plate affair, and tried a couple of lawn tractor style starters. They still didn't do it.
Last thing I did was to pick up a starter from a '91 Ford Escort 1.9. The ring gear profile looked very close to the ring gear I already had made up, just a larger diameter. I made up some brakets, and hooked it up, and at long last success! It spins over like the spark plugs were pulled out!
Let me say that we did not spend money on machine work to make all the parts perfect. I was only interested in trying to find out what would work so as to get my boat in the water A.S.A.P. I can refine and adjust things next winter. The only precision part used is the small aluminum bushing my buddy turned on his lathe.
Also, I intended to mount the starter on the side of the engine, but after I got back from the junkyard, I realized the Escort starter turns backwards (clockwise), opposite from the others I had tried! Since I will have enough clearance on my boat, I mounted in out front for now.
I know there are automotive starters that turn CCW, but if anyone knows what kind they are I would appreciate knowing!
I won't need an alternater since the 084 has a better, more efficient alternater built in, than most anything else you could buy. Also I found out it does not take any power at all when it is not charging. It can be hooked up several ways, depending on what you want it to do. The simplest way is to hook up three wires to a small engine regulater. Ebay has one listed now-#120401145539.
After I removed the Starter-Generator and brakets, I put them on the scale......25 lbs. The Escort starter and brakets etc....12 lbs. How about that!!!
Anyway, that is how I solved my starter-generator problem. I am very interested to see any other different, or similiar set-ups anyone else comes up with.
Thanks, Dave

P.S. I guess they won't let me put more than three pic's. on at a time, so I will put the rest on another post

[buster]

Here are the rest of the starter pictures. Somehow the last picture got in line first, oh well.
I should say here that gear alignment and clearance is very touchy. when the brakets were tach welded together, the starter worked fine. After I took them off and finished welding them, they must have warped slightly and the selonoid would'nt kick the drive gear in. Notice the thin washer I slipped in behind the top bolt (near the fuel pump). After I put that in for a shim, It worked fine! Apparently the drive gear was hitting the side of the ring gear.
Dave

[Duane Scarborough]

Buster,

Don't ever let anyone tell you that you can't think outside of the box !

I like the idea of using a bendix style starter and ring gear much better than a starter/generator. Unfortunately, I won't have enough clearance to do it that way. But it does give me some ideas. You have started a storm in my brain.

I've not even started stripping down my engine. It still has the original (new) bendix style starter and ring gear on the flywheel/fan end of the engine. I'm going to try to figure out a way to modify and re-use some of what I already have. It'd be a shame to pitch all of that if it can be re-used. After looking again at the pictures I took of Ron Paxson's reduction drive, I think I know how to make it work.

I'm going to use an AeroProp reduction drive which requires removing everything on the flywheel end of the engine. It's all dead weight that needs to go anyway. However, it also makes space to do something similar to what you've done, but tucked up under the engine.

The original starter, solenoid, alternator, and voltage regulator are 24V. If I used 2 12V garden tractor or motorcycle batteries in a series, dual voltage configuration, I could re-use all of that, and still have 12V for lights and other things. It'll probably be at least a couple of months before I get to the point of trying it, but I'll let you know how it turns out.

Thanks for sharing your solution !

Duane

[buster]

Hey Duane,

I talked to Eric at the local alternater/starter shop this afternoon. I found out he has a book that tells the direction every starter turns. I wish I would have known that last week

I could have just as well picked up a starter from a Suburu, VW, or one of a few others that turn CCW. Then I would have put it alongside the engine (where it belongs, in my opinion).

If you look at my pictures, there is a half moon cutout (above the ground cable), I made to accomodate two other Onan starters I tried. They would not cut the mustard. That's when I started to think about a starter that was made to turn a four cyl. engine! I could have mounted it there if it had turned CCW!

That should also work for you, but just make sure you get a CCW starter. I would suggest trying to find one no more that 7-1/2" long for cylinder clearance. Also get a ring gear (preferably the entire flex plate) from that same type of engine. I wouldn't mess around with that 24 volt starter, If you already have one, I suggest selling it on ebay, probably for a lot more than you can get a suitable 12 volt setup for! Think about that!

I am looking at my engine with an arrowprop drive mounted on it, and I don't see any way to squeeze a ring gear and starter on that end of the engine. I'd be interested in seeing how you plan to do it!

I intend to re-do mine as soon as I get time. It will be beside the engine, when I do. It will not take up much extra room that way. I'll also make some kind of a guard over it.

Dave

[Duane Scarborough]

Buster,

You're right AGAIN. My first idea was way off. My 2nd idea was to mount a smaller ring gear on the driven (propellor) pulley, extend the adjustment/idler plate, and mount the starter there. Above the engine. I've seen this done on a Harley powered boat, and it worked fine. After thinking about it some, I like your idea better.

Now the search is on to find the right donor vehicle.

Thanks,

Duane

[buster]

OK Duane,

I have seen pictures of your neighborhood. Tell me your not gonna drag a parts car home just to get a starter and flex plate. Your neighbors would have a fit! I bought mine from the biggest parts yard in the twin cities for only thirty bucks. If you need a phone no., let me know.

Dave

[Duane Scarborough]

Buster,

When I said "donor vehicle" I meant IN A JUNK YARD. The neighbors would be the least of my problems if I did drag home a junk car. Pam would kill me, and then kill me again.

Hmmm... I wonder if she'd buy a story about someone stealing the starter from her Camry. Her Mom had all 4 wheels stolen from her Camry about 6 months ago, so that story might fly...

Duane

OK Duane,

I have seen pictures of your neighborhood. Tell me your not gonna drag a parts car home just to get a starter and flex plate. Your neighbors would have a fit! I bought mine from the biggest parts yard in the twin cities for only thirty bucks. If you need a phone no., let me know.

Dave

[buster]

Ya, that sounds like a plan . Oh wait, I think toyota turns the wrong direction

Dave

[Duane Scarborough]

Hmm... maybe I need to park it facing the other direction before I steal the starter.

I guess I need to go talk with one of my local starter re-builders to get an idea of what to look for. The junk yard guys would think I was Kwazy. (which I am).

Really, thanks for the insight, advice, and turning me around. I'm still a long ways out from needing to solve this puzzle. I've still got a rope ! And my boat isn't nearly ready for the engine yet.

Duane

[imported_Papee]

I'm not sure if the 032 and 084 use the same starter but they were using a Subaru starter for the 032. Someone even makes one that will bolt in to the original mounts.

[Duane Scarborough]

Papee,

I admired Chuck's still in the crate 4A032 when I was down there. Didn't take pictures of it. What I remember was that it's original starter was mounted pretty much the same as the original 4A084 starter. Pointing towards the flywheel end of the engine.

Buster's idea is to mount the starter on the other end of the engine, with a ring gear on that end. To tuck it under the engine, with the starter pointed in the other direction, would require a starter that turns opposite the original.

Ugh. This CW / CCW , this end / that end stuff has my brain hurting.

If you run across pictures of the Subaru / 4A032 starter setup, please share.

For now, I'm ready to get started building rigging. I'll electric start the engine later. For now, I have a rope.

Duane

BTW, I spoke with someone at TinyTach on Monday. They have a very economical way to put a digital Tach/Hourmeter on a 4A084. I ordered one, and it should be here before the weekend. There is a little trick to making it work with shielded plug wires. I'll try it, take pictures, and let you know how it works out.

I'm not sure if the 032 and 084 use the same starter but they were using a Subaru starter for the 032. Someone even makes one that will bolt in to the original mounts.

[imported_Papee]

I use the rope too, the motor starts so easy I really don't mind it but it's sold now and the new owner needs the starter. I'll be using the starter generator setup to save all the weight I can though. I had a Bolens tractor starter /gen modified but it too is a little slow.

[buster]

Hi Papee,

Hey go back and read the weights I came up with when I switched to a Escort starter, from the starter-generater. I saved about 13 lbs. Also no belt to burn HP.

It really is not that hard to do. You'd have to fab the s/g brackets anyway! If you use a CCW starter like a Suburu, or VW, It will work a lot better than the s/g unit. Unlike the s/g units, they were made to start a 4 cyl. engine! I would use the flex plate from the same engine and adapt it to the rope pulley. Get a bushing turned to fit over that collar by the center bolt, and to fit the center of your flex plate. That should align the ring gear and prevent run-out. You could even use two 3/8" bolts and nuts to fasten it to the rope pull slots!

Give it some thought!

Good Luck,
Dave

[imported_Papee]

I'm talking about more than weight, I'm also talking about more rotating mass with the stock charging system and a flywheel added. When I add my starter/generator I will also be adding a "bypass" switch so I can turn off the charging system when I need the extra torque. Keep in mind that the boat I am finishing now is a direct drive setup but I will most likely apply the same to my next project with the reduction. I'm am not saying you are on the wrong path, I am just choosing another road. As I've said before, I do march to the beat of a different drummer.

[buster]

OK Papee,

I never gave a thought that you'd actually want to add weight. That's almost unheard of in a MINI airboat! Well you really do have a different drummer. I think I would just go with a straight stick flywheel, instead of a flex plate, and a suburu starter. I just don't have much faith in the s/g units!

You could put a switch on the built in alternator too. I would try to set it up to switch off in wide open throttle situation. That way it would be automatic, and one less thing to think about.

Thanks, Dave

[Duane Scarborough]

Buster,

You said:

"You could put a switch on the built in alternator too. I would try to set it up to switch off in wide open throttle situation. That way it would be automatic, and one less thing to think about."

That's a great idea ! Keep the alternator working up to about 3/4 throttle position, and cut it out above that. and it'd be simple to do.

I like it.

Thanks,

Duane

[Duane Scarborough]

All,

The Tiny Tach I mentioned before showed up today. I hope to install and test it on my engine this weekend.

But I've got a very busy weekend ahead. Here's the plan:

1. Get the yard back under control. Spring has sprung, and my yard is a mess.

2. Get the model RR layout out of the spare bedroom. It's a concession that I made to Pam when I started on the Mini Airboat project. It's a very nice but unfinished 4x8 DCC layout. I don't play with it much anymore. It's just taking up space that Pam wants for other things. I'm donating it to my model RR club. They are going to finish it, sell tickets, and raffle it off at the November Nuese River Valley Model Railroad show.

3. Silde my MiniPro 116 hull off of the trailer, flip it over, prep it, and apply Frog Spit. I talked again with Chuck this afternoon to make sure that I do it right.

4. Test the Tiny Tach.

5. Finish setting up and do some test welds with the Millermatic 140 MIG welder that I bought this week.

If I get 1, 2, and 3 done, I'll be happy. 4 and 5 will be a bonus.

I'll report back on Monday to let you know how I did.

Duane

Edit:

6. Take pictures of 3, 4, and 5.

[buster]

OK guys,

I had some time to spare waiting to get ahold of the frogspit for my Aircat, so I decided to take another shot at this starter situation. On second thought, I am doing this mainly for Duane. I am quite sure he has himself convinced that I stuck the starter out in the front of that engine just 'cause It was closest to where I happened to be standing

Anyway, the starter I came up with is from a 1993 Subaru Legacy AT. I think most Subaru starters would work, but I have never seen another one, so I don't know That for a fact.

The gear profile seems to be the same as on the Escort starter, and also the small engine ring gear that I started with. That probably came off a lawn tractor engine, about 14 to 18 HP. It is 9-1/4" diameter, and is about the smallest diameter useable because of clearance problems.

If I were to start from scratch again, I would probably use a larger ring gear,maybe the flex plate from an AT car, and mount the starter lower, so as to get it away from the cylinder, for better air flow. I don't think it will be a problem the way I have it, but if it is, I will fashion a sheet metal scoop to funnel more air to the front cylinder. I may do that anyway because the seat may block airflow too.

Third pic' shows the brackets being fabricated, and fitted together. Notice the shim blocking the drive gear in the engaged position. It makes positioning the starter correctly a lot easier.[attachment=1:23lnuxgc]084 STARTER PROJECT 011.jpg[/attachment:23lnuxgc][attachment=0:23lnuxgc]084 STARTER PROJECT.jpg[/attachment:23lnuxgc]

[buster]

This is the last post, continued, because of the three picture limit.

These show the finished project, even squirted some Rustoleum on it.

The weight of all the parts was approx. 14 pounds.

Thanks, Dave

[Duane Scarborough]

OK guys,

On second thought, I am doing this mainly for Duane. I am quite sure he has himself convinced that I stuck the starter out in the front of that engine just 'cause It was closest to where I happened to be standing [attachment=1:2l2b0ptx]084 STARTER PROJECT 011.jpg[/attachment:2l2b0ptx][attachment=0:2l2b0ptx]084 STARTER PROJECT.jpg[/attachment:2l2b0ptx]

Wow. You've busted my bubble. I was completely convinced, too.

It's looking very good, Buster. But does it WORK?

Duane