View Full Version : New 4a084 Build
qahqn8
12-05-2016, 05:59 PM
Hi Everyone:
Thanks to Corky, who found this on Ebay, I am the proud new owner of a 4a084. I’ve been reading up in the manual and I think I understand most of the internal parts. My question is what parts are permanently removed. Correct me if I’m wrong but the following are removed (and please add any I missed):
- Shroud
- Governor (plate the hole)
- Flywheel/Fan Housing (to have access to driveshaft)
My other question is about the Solex carb conversion. I would stick with the stock carb like Papee suggested but I have a friend who does a ton of VW work. He offered to help install and tune a Solex. Are there any pictures of how people have mounted these on the intake? I’ve seen lots of posts about this but no pictures. In addition, what have others done to get the Solex properly jetted? As always thank you for the time and information.
- The new village idiot
bgmcl60
12-05-2016, 07:43 PM
i left the bell housing and flywheel on and ordered a 12 volt starter for the engine. i called arrow props about an adaptor for the 1 3/4 shaft already mounted to the flywheel. flywheel and bellhousing is cast aluminum. couldn't weigh 20 lb. i haven't had mine running without flooding. i think the carb mod is the best investment.papee has a thread about the solex carb and intake mod with pictures.
aerokirk
12-05-2016, 07:51 PM
Qahqn8,
I have posted pictures of my intake modification which you can see if you look at aerokirk's build. There are three pics on about page 6 (post #114). You can also see pics on one of Papee's posts. You basically cut off the flange end and use a hole saw to cut a circle out of the top center of the spider. You then use the core in the hole saw to plug the end you cut the flange off of and weld the flange onto the top of the spider. I mounted a Solex 34 which I found that I needed to install one size leaner idle jet and one size larger main jet. I think I also mentioned these things in my build post.
I also posted a video of the carb conversion somewhere on this site, possibly in the Videos thread
yamahaulerG1
12-05-2016, 08:28 PM
I found that a 92 Saturn starter bolted to the shroud and lined up with the ring gear on one I had. But I felt that the stock flywheel might block some air from the prop and the fins actually direct the air towards motor away from the prop. But it still worked just fine till I could find something better. Also I ran a tuned 28mm solex it didn't turn anymore rpms then the stock carb but it had better throttle response.
qahqn8
12-05-2016, 11:00 PM
Thanks for the information. Is there a benefit to leaving the flywheel and bell housing on? Aerokirk - thank you for the reference, its exactly what I was looking for. The spiders are cast aluminum correct? Sounds like the Solex gives you a bit more punch and maybe even a few more revs. Thanks again everyone. I've been posting like a fool and your patience and expertise are much appreciated.
- The new village idiot
Corky
12-06-2016, 08:00 PM
Welcome to the 4A084 club !!! ;thumb;
No benefit to leaving the flywheel in our application other than giving a starter a place to bolt up and the ability to check the timing...But IMO the set-backs out weigh the gains...Which include added weight,and as pointed out the reverse airflow from the flywheel blocking and fighting the props airflow...
You'll be stripping all the shields,wiring harness, and even the original sending units eventually... I have a pic of the parts taken off{and on the table} in my build thread also...
The intake "joint" as Saturn Supply calls it is cast aluminum... And remember there's no dumb questions except the one's you should have ask ahead of time...:lol:
Corky
12-06-2016, 08:03 PM
I found that a 92 Saturn starter bolted to the shroud and lined up with the ring gear on one I had. But I felt that the stock flywheel might block some air from the prop and the fins actually direct the air towards motor away from the prop. But it still worked just fine till I could find something better. Also I ran a tuned 28mm solex it didn't turn anymore rpms then the stock carb but it had better throttle response.Good info on the starter that will surely help someone out if they're trying to use the factory bellhousing and flywheel...;thumb;
Corky
12-06-2016, 08:05 PM
i left the bell housing and flywheel on and ordered a 12 volt starter for the engine. i called arrow props about an adaptor for the 1 3/4 shaft already mounted to the flywheel. flywheel and bellhousing is cast aluminum. couldn't weigh 20 lb. i haven't had mine running without flooding. i think the carb mod is the best investment.papee has a thread about the solex carb and intake mod with pictures.
Papee has stated there's a common problem with the original carb's float sticking the quick cure is to tap on the carb to unstick the float...If that does'nt do the trick you may need to go deeper and look for dirt/debris holding the float open...
qahqn8
12-07-2016, 10:01 AM
Corky - Thank you for the help and for finding that engine in OKC (Should be here today or tomorrow and I feel like a kid before Christmas). Your build posts have been unbelievably helpful too, I'm going to model my build off of yours with the exception of leaving the bow at 5'. I saw your post with all the parts taken off, I just wanted to make sure I got everything. Speaking of sending units... I was actually wondering if the fuel pump on these is capable of pulling fuel from an external tank like what you see on most of the builds, of if you needed something a little more powerful? Do you remove the governor?
One other thing... It is a secret that I closely guard... I suck with any kind of electrical work hahahaha. That being said the whole 24v to 12v thing has me scratching my head. I understand the problem but not how/where to install a rectifier. I see that many people put starters on these and I am assuming they are 24v starters since a 12v starter probably could not turn the motor over... so a rectifier must be installed between the 12v battery and the 24v starter? Is that right?
Once again thank you for any information.
aerokirk
12-07-2016, 05:23 PM
[QUOTE=qahqn8;34592]Thanks for the information. Is there a benefit to leaving the flywheel and bell housing on? Aerokirk - thank you for the reference, its exactly what I was looking for. The spiders are cast aluminum correct? Sounds like the Solex gives you a bit more punch and maybe even a few more revs. Thanks again everyone. I've been posting like a fool and your patience and expertise are much appreciated.
- The new village idiot[/QUOTE
The best strategy is to convert the 24V system to 12V (including the starter). You shouldn't need an additional fuel pump to pump up to the engine as the stock pump works well if your tank is fairly close to ( usually right below or just forward of) the engine.
qahqn8
12-08-2016, 05:04 PM
2928
Just got the 4a084. Appears to be in really good shape. The oil is still clear and most of the red plastic caps are on so there's a chance this motor has never been turned over. It turns freely but not to easily, will measure compression tonight... Here is my list of daily questions:
1). Compression should be about 120 psi?
2). Someone scavenged the fuel pump off of this so I'm going to mount an external pump. I need a cover plate for existing hole were the original pump would have attached. Has anyone found something that works or will I have to fab one?
3). I read on another thread about using Bradd Penn 15W-40 break in oil... Were you happy with the results. I've heard mixed stuff about break in oil in general working on cars. What do you guys think?
As always thanks for the help and opinions.
aerokirk
12-08-2016, 05:39 PM
My opinions to your questions:
1) Yes, it will probably get close to that pressure if you're using an automotive pressure gauge to test, however, being a Teledyne Continental engine, it is almost identical to an aircraft engine so I would use the pressure bleed down method to test it accurately. You will need a special two gauge tester for this which any A&P aircraft mechanic should have. You basically charge each cylinder with air to 80psi and the second gauge measures pressure leaks (rings, valves, etc). Values of 60 over 80 are considered good,
2) Not too sure on this but I'm going to guess that you'll end up making up your own plate ... 1/4" aluminum works well for this.
3) I would definitely recommend a straight mineral oil (break in oil) for at least the first 25 hours since again, this is basically a small aircraft engine.
JMO
qahqn8
12-09-2016, 04:04 PM
Thanks Aerokirk. Appreciate the expertise
Corky
12-19-2016, 10:24 AM
I'll add a few thoughts....Make sure the electric fuel pump has a working PSI in the range needed for the carb (solex or zenith}...It's not much...Around 3-5 PSI...You'll flood the engine if the pressure is more than that...So that means either the output is in that range or you may need an inline regulator if the pump's output is above the range...IMO the easy way {and least amount of problems} would be to simply bolt an 084 mechanical fuel pump back on there...
Here's another reason why I prefer the mechanical pump : I'm prone to overthinking all situations that could arise on the water...IF....If by some chance you would have an electrical problem on the water that electric fuel pump could need to rely on the battery...Whereas if you had the mechanical pump the engine is still self-sufficient and would run after the rope start...
No choice you make is the "wrong" one just throwing that out there...
Again, nice score on the engine it appears to be new...I wouldn't worry too much about a compression check considering the condition of the engine...If it were run the exhaust manifolds would show evidence of the run I think you'll be fine in assuming the best...
qahqn8
12-19-2016, 10:49 AM
Hi Corky:
I started cleaning up the engine and looking at things that need to be taking care of before a test start. All in all its in good shape. The air filter box is dented pretty bad but thats getting pulled off anyway. One of the valve cover boxes has a crack in it so that needs replaced too. Everything else looks OK.
Good point on the mechanical vs. electric. I fabbed a cover plate and found an electric 5psi pump for $35 (haven't bought yet) but I also found replacement OEM pump on Saturn surplus for $75 (which seems steep). Does anybody on the website have a 4A084 fuel pump that they'd want to sell? I'd prefer to stay mechanical but I also don't feel like letting Saturn Surplus take me to the cleaners.
yamahaulerG1
12-19-2016, 12:48 PM
I have used both not at the same time electric and mechanical fuel pumps both work fine I've had a mechanical pump go bad and it filled my crankcase with gas and electric pumps that have gone bad is an easy fix if you make long rides you can carry a spare they don't use much power either. Here is where I buy mine they ship very fast also. http://m.ebay.com/itm/NEW-GLOBAL-AUTOMOTIVE-UNIVERSAL-ELECTRIC-FUEL-PUMP-WITH-INSTALLATION-KIT-GA8016S
i have one, i will send you my phone # in a message
never thought about selling one. but you can only set on so many things.
on another note, i thought i would test and see if it still worked. i just didnt think of where the outlet line was pointing. it went right up my nose, just glad i was using water and not gas. yep, it shoots out pretty far.
qahqn8
12-20-2016, 10:07 AM
Hahahaha glad you're OK and thank you Bart. Got the PM, ill text you ASAP. Thanks again
yamahaulerG1
12-20-2016, 10:45 PM
This is what makes this site great ppl helping each other out. I think I have some valve covers also pm me if you still need one. I have a few parts I don't need anymore be glad to get rid of I've been scraping some just to get it out of my way. And that link to the electric pump is less then $13 + free shipping it's hard to beat for anyone reading
Corky
12-21-2016, 04:57 PM
I tried the link and it takes me to the ebay homepage.. For some reason I can't see the fuel pump...
yamahaulerG1
12-23-2016, 08:59 AM
It must be because I'm on a cell phone doing this the next best thing I can do is a screen shot of the title someone can search it
qahqn8
12-23-2016, 02:42 PM
Thank you all for the help! Yamahauler and Bart did my PM come through? Not sure they did, still learning site.
qahqn8
12-23-2016, 02:48 PM
29702971297229732974
so I got a solex-Brosol h30/31 for 25 bucks from a vw guy in town (dales imports, Corpus Christi). He had more I think if anyone is in the market. Just a few before after pics of the carb rebuild. Still needs to be tuned but it shined up nice and aside from gaskets everything else looked great. Hoping for a test start in the next few weeks.
Corky
12-24-2016, 09:54 PM
Nice score...It appears to be in good shape...;thumb;
qahqn8
01-08-2017, 05:29 PM
Tank you to everyone for the parts and advice... Getting closer on starting it. Does anyone have info on how to jump the starter solenoid? It's a 3 pole with two white wires and a brown wire. The top white wire runs to what looks like a thermometer on exhaust cowling and the brown is connected to a pole left of the two white wires. Do you leave everything hooked the way it is and just connect jumps to brown and bottom white wire? Sorry just confused. I'm a disaster with wiring. Thanks for any help
from my understanding the brown wire sends power to the solenoid (connected at the 9 o'clock post) when you turn the key. (my brown wire has the red connector on it)
the bottom white wire that is connected to the post at 6 O'clock, runs back into the main control panel. (it feeds power to the ignition switch on the control panel, when it was connected to a generator. )
the other white wire. (on mine, it is connected to the post at 12 o'clock) goes to a heat sensing thermodisc, next to the exhaust, then is connected to the electric choke. the disc is open when it is cold, allowing voltage to go and activate the choke. when the exhaust gets warm enough, the switch is closed, thus turning off the choke.
if your starter is still the 24 volt starter, you will need to connect 2 ea. 12 volt batteries in series, to get 24 volts, (just one 12 volt battery really wont turn it over fast enough.
connect the positive lead coming off the battery to the 6 o'clock post. and ground the negative cable coming off the battery to the motor, (just like on a car)
then all that is left is to connect an ignition or a push button switch, of your choosing to the 6 & 9 o'clock posts.
This will start the motor, BUT how do you shut it OFF!!!!
On the magneto, there is a tab coming off of it. this tab will ground out the spark from the magneto. run a wire from it, to a on/off switch, then back to the motor. now you can shut off the motor.
attached is a picture of the wire coming off the magneto on 042 motor, that goes to the main harness loom.
it is this tab, that when grounded, it will kill the spark going to the spark plugs.
hope this helps.
in a few of the builds/threads, this has been talked about. but it takes a good memory and time to track down the threads for all this information.
have fun.
sorry about the snow, we had wind gusts over 90 mph this last weekend. i think i have more snow in my shed that outside.
Warning, connect a muffler to the exhaust. it is more than a little loud. I live in town, and last summer i started it up, with no muffler. a friend heard it over a mile away, some of my neighbors, were not to happy.
qahqn8
01-10-2017, 12:05 AM
Hi Bart- 2 quick questions. Do you leave the original wiring attached? What gauge wire did you use for the 24 volt system? Thanks again
my 084 did not come with any wiring. the person i purchased it from, has 5 full sized airboats. and ran out of time and energy to make a mini airboat. and he had been sitting on it for 5-6 years.
when you ask what gauge of wire are you referring to the battery cables, or just regular wire to run the gauges.
looking at the 042 gen sets, (24 volt) for the much of the wire on the harness appears to be almost 18 gauge. there is not a lot of amps that are going to the gauges
i have just been using wire that is on hand. most of it is either 16 or 14 gauge.
as for the battery cables. i forget what the gauge of wire they are, (probably 6 gauge) i am just using battery cables that i have acquired over the years.
hope that this answers your questions?
qahqn8
01-10-2017, 09:39 AM
Yes sir! Thank you. Hopefully get her cranked up tonight!
qahqn8
01-11-2017, 10:07 AM
Well I got the starter jumped but it wouldn't disengage. So I took it off and realized the coils were burned to a crisp. Luckily I have a friend who rebuilds starters so we'll see if he can work some magic on it. It'll be a few days but I'm getting closer!
qahqn8
01-11-2017, 10:10 AM
One question for anyone who knows - what is the correct size socket to get the spark plugs out? I'm going to have to get tube wrenches because my deep sockets are still too short. From what I've read its a 7/8 hex?
Corky
01-12-2017, 09:26 PM
I've bought 2 craftsman deep well sockets for the spark plugs...They fit and do the job...I've got my original starter if you need one...Never used..
qahqn8
01-13-2017, 01:17 PM
Thanks Corky I appreciate it. I just got word that the starter is done in. I'll PM you about your starter. Thanks again.
bgmcl60
01-13-2017, 03:35 PM
the socket size is 7/8.
Corky
01-13-2017, 10:34 PM
Thanks Corky I appreciate it. I just got word that the starter is done in. I'll PM you about your starter. Thanks again.
Well, one good thing is you'll be getting the members only deep discount rate on the new starter...:lol:
Corky
03-11-2017, 11:22 PM
Just checking in to see if you've got your 084 fired up ??? Did you get the wiring straightened out ???
qahqn8
03-11-2017, 11:56 PM
Hey cork- thanks for checking in... i havent had a chance to work on it. Fiance was in a bad car wreck and then i got the flu. Everything is getting back to normal so ill be getting back to it.
Corky
03-12-2017, 08:48 PM
Wow that's some bad news...I hope she's doing well and you get back on track...
qahqn8
03-12-2017, 08:52 PM
Thanks cork. We'll be back on all cylinders in no time!
qahqn8
05-01-2017, 02:56 PM
https://youtu.be/P2mz-X9sHxA
Hey guys -
Sorry its been so long, life got kinda crazy there for a minute. Thanks so all of your advice and spare parts, I was able to finally get that 4A084 running last night. Its got a fuel delivery issue (probably the electric pump) that I'm working out but if the carb bowl full then she cranks right up. Thanks for all of your help. Thought you may enjoy hearing the first crank!
qahqn8
05-01-2017, 05:28 PM
Also, I found out that Whirlwind is a Circle S retailer but they're wanting $1600 per unit. Is that about what you all paid? What about the arrowprop reduction gear? Any thoughts or firsthand experience? Better yet, has anyone successfully built their own gear for an 084? I realize these little things can get pricey but $1600 for a gear box seems outrageous to me.
aerokirk
05-01-2017, 07:05 PM
I paid $1350 for my Circle-S from Chuck Rackley at Airboat Pros in 2014. I know it's a lot of money but the craftsmanship is top notch. I've got over one hundred hours on mine so far and the only problem I've had is with the idler roller which I have disabled by tying it back away from the belt as it's not really needed and makes a hell of a racket at certain rpms. Just a word of caution though, make sure you tie wire the idler arm adjustment nut to the frame as mine vibrated loose and went through my brand new whirlwind prop ($$$).
qahqn8
05-03-2017, 10:29 AM
Thanks Aerokirk:
If they're the best option I understand the price is worth it. I know the tolerances have to be very tight and precision always costs money. Time to start saving up!
qahqn8
05-04-2017, 11:23 AM
Hi Guys:
I have more stupid questions! Why is there an oil tube running to the governor?
qahqn8
05-04-2017, 11:24 AM
Can I just plug the outlet on top of the block once the governor oil tube is removed?
first question. the oil line lubricates the governor shaft. and drains down onto the timing gears. on the back side of the timing gear cover there is a splash guard that keeps the oil from draining directly onto the breather tube that feeds air to the air cleaner. (I have some pictures of this on the link that I have talked about putting timing marks on the front pulley)
second question. yes everyone has plugged it off. a few have wondered about the effect of the lack of oil draining onto the timing gears to keep them lubricated. some have ran the motor for many years this way. and have stated that when they pull the replacement governor cover off, the gears still appear to be lubricated.
(I have looked at this for a while and googled (timing gear oiling) it has sent me to a link on Grumpy's performance forum. that has some interesting thoughts. where they talk about drilling a 1/32" -#72 drill bit hole in the back of the oil journal plug, so that the timing gears can have some oil sprayed on them )
with this insight, I am thinking of following their thoughts. I know this motor is not a high performance engine, by any means.
but it has been a fun motor to study up on, and see what others have done with it.
qahqn8
07-03-2017, 05:23 PM
3312
Hi guys - starting to remove the stock parts and add the upgrades. Quick question, these are 2 of the 4 bolts I need to remove the governor correct? This is the opening that needs to be covered with a plate? Thanks.
qahqn8
07-03-2017, 05:25 PM
3313
Question 2 - Why is there an inlet from the air intake into the motor (I'm talking about the inlet with the silver ring above the stator in this picture). Should this be plugged?
Thanks for the help gents!
first question. yep, you need to remove the 4 bolts & the oil line, to remove the governor. you will need to put a plug in where the oil line comes out of the case. and install a cover plate.
second question. the part in question is a warm air breather tube, which allows air to be sucked out of the crank case which helps with keeping the carb from freezing. behind the small plate is a small reed valve which allows air to be sucked out. but will close if the the direction of the air is reversed. (in case of a backfire)
it looks like all that have changed to the Volkswagen carb, are running a tube to the air cleaner. and have had great success with the carb not freezing.
glad to see that your still finding time to play with this project.
Corky
07-03-2017, 10:30 PM
And adding that vent line into the air cleaner also helps scavenge any crankcase vapors...Another added bonus is creating suction in the crankcase that supposedly helps with engine operation as well as pulling out any moisture that may be in there..Much like the PCV in an auto engine...Bottom line is don't be tempted to block it off the engine crankcase needs that vent...
bgmcl60
07-04-2017, 07:12 PM
qahqn8 you asked about a belt drive i too was trying to decide which way to go. i decided to go with arrow belt drive because of price. and its a few pounds lighter. i haven't used mine but twice. the second time i used it i noticed the rpm going higher than normal and stopped on a sand bar and tightened the belt an fixed problem. took more time disconnecting battery than adjusting the belt. probably not as precision made as circle s but were not useing it on an airplane either. i think they will get the job done the same way at less expense. if my budget would allow i would have bought circle s but i needed other things more. i have nothing to say bad about arrow props and they are very friendly and goes the extra mile to make you happy. i also didn't like the long wait time on the circle s. i think the trick to getting that thick belt on the first time before it stretches is to mount the plate with top pulley without tightening it up and slide belt on bottom then over top pulley before you slide the bottom pulley on the shaft. you have to slide the bottom pulley up against the top pulley to get the belt on. after it stretches some it should be easier. also the circle s comes with a starter mounting hole. not sure if starter comes with it or not. you could rig up one like i did using a harley ring gear and chevy mini starter if you decide to go with arrow belt drive.
qahqn8
07-05-2017, 09:06 AM
Hi Bart! Good to hear from you. Thanks for the information. That Solex carb Im putting on there has a scavenger intake on it, I'll probably run a vaccum hose from the crankcase port to that and see what happens! Hows your build going?
qahqn8
07-05-2017, 09:09 AM
Hi Corky! Thanks for the info. Like I told Bart, I think the Solex carb I have actually has a port for scavenging so I may try running it through there. I'm going to touch base with the VW mechanic before I do though. Hope things are going well for you!
qahqn8
07-05-2017, 09:11 AM
HI - Thanks for the feedback! Im glad to hear that the system works on your build. Im still trying to decide as I reconfigure the motor but you've got me thinking. If I remember correctly the arrow drive did not have a mount for a starter correct? How did you mount your starter? Thanks again for help, Im interested to learn more.
bgmcl60
07-05-2017, 11:13 AM
what i did was take a 350 chevy flex plate cut out the center to fit over the top pulley bearing and cut the ring gear off and replace with a harley 102 tooth ring gear then i welded the flex plate to the harley ring gear and mounted on rear of top pulley with existing holes in pulley. cut a bracket out of angle iron and welded it to side of top pulley bracket.
bgmcl60
07-05-2017, 11:31 AM
this is the harley ring gear welded to chevy flex plate.
qahqn8
07-05-2017, 11:54 AM
Nice work - the pictures are helpful. Do you have any of the system mounted on your boat?
bgmcl60
07-05-2017, 11:59 AM
here is a video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3lwtnYOjgc
qahqn8
07-05-2017, 12:03 PM
Nice! Thats what I needed to see. Good simple set up. I really appreciate the help. What kind of starter you using?
bgmcl60
07-05-2017, 12:07 PM
i.m going to take the mounting plate off and reweld all welds. it looks bad now but i was in a hurry to find out if it would work. its a 350 mini starter 67.89 at ebay
qahqn8
07-05-2017, 12:52 PM
Hey man if works looks aren't a big deal. Im really starting the lean this way, simplicity is key. That being said keeping that flex plate centered in the harley gear had to be hard to do. Did you just eyeball the clearance between the starter and "flywheel".
qahqn8
07-05-2017, 12:58 PM
Just noticed on your earlier video that you were running the original flex plate at one point. Why'd you end up with the harley gear? Sorry for the questions just figuring out how best to do this
bgmcl60
07-05-2017, 01:22 PM
i would have used the chevy flexplate but not enough clearance between flexplate and lower pulley. i needed a longer belt and maybe have to slot adjusting holes so i seen where chuck ratcliff made a similar one with the harley ring gear and it worked.i didnt't have room for the starter straight on top so i put it on the side. i used the chevy flexplate when it was direct drive and had plenty of clearance. with the belt drive you don't have much. another member had his flexplate srunk over an aluminum plate. i think thats the way chuck had his too. take a paper clip and jam it between starter gear and ring gear while holding starter gear engaged and move starter around until centered. the starter has shims that come with it and also has two already installed in the gear end you can take out for fine adjustment. i laid pulley on the harley ring gear and measured between the teeth and edge of pulley and used a drill to mark the location. used the sae1 pattern the belt drive comes with to mount tne ring and counter sunk the outside of the holes so prop would mount flat. i had do drill a 75mm bolt pattern to mount the prop. it comes with 3 holes already drilled to hold pulley on.
Corky
07-06-2017, 06:19 PM
Very nice mod using the harley ring gear...;thumb; I remember reading the arrowprop reduction had a little flex to it during operation and some were adding reinforcements to keep it from flexing the pulley framing{and slipping the belts}...Did they ever address that problem ?? Keep us posted on how the reduction is working for you..
qahqn8
07-06-2017, 10:36 PM
We'll see how it works out, still getting to retrieve step hahaha
qahqn8
07-06-2017, 10:42 PM
3325
So removed the governor, need to fab a cover plate now. Do I need to replace this spring behind the cover plate to keep pressure on gears?
qahqn8
07-06-2017, 10:43 PM
3326
Oil outlet to governor that I need to plug. Getting the stock carb assembly opened up so much room!
qahqn8
07-06-2017, 10:52 PM
3327
Can anyone explain why there are two ground wires daisy-chained on the magneto? In addition, if I were to ground the wire that runs into the main wiring harness, it would cut ignition and stop the engine correct? I'm still very hazy on how magnetos work. Here is my understanding:
1). Engine cranks over spinning gears in magneto
2). The dark magic that is electricity is generated in the magneto by a system of gears, coils, etc.
3). This "high power" electricity is sent to the distributor which times and coordinates delivery of power to spark plugs
4). The wires running out of magneto ground it to the engine, by shorting this ground connection the delivery of power to the distributor from the magneto stops, killing the engine.
Thanks for any clarification
How
bgmcl60
07-06-2017, 10:53 PM
i don't know what the older one looked like but mine has a 3/8 thick mounting bracket for belt drive an i have seen pictures of one with an added brace and it looks nothing like mine. looks at least 1/2 in i think aluminum like chuck at airboat pros sold. looks like it was made with a boat trailer hub for top pulley spindle. and no mine doesn't flex at all. i believe one of the grounds was used for low oil pressure cut off . you don't need it. and yes grounding the mag wire kills engine. qahqn8 i think we were posting at same time sorry.
qahqn8
07-07-2017, 12:02 AM
And my oil pressure sending unit is rusty and I want to replace it. Has anyone found a good replacement part from the auto industry?
In addition, did you all keep the low oil pressure cut off or did you bypass it?
Thanks again!
aewrigh
07-07-2017, 07:04 AM
Those wires you inquired about on the magneto are actually just one wire. What you are seeing is where they broke out the shield to ground it to the case. The wire is your tach output signal. If you ground it out it will kill spark and stop your engine. For engine testing I took the other end of the wire and ran the shield to a switch and connected the white signal wire to the other side of the switch to fashion a quick kill switch.
qahqn8
07-07-2017, 09:54 AM
Aewrigh -
Thanks for the help with the magneto wiring. Im still a little unclear on the engine testing kill switch (thats what I'm currently trying to do). Just to clarify, to make a kill switch youre saying to run the wire in the picture (that is the wire t connected at two points on the magneto) to a switch then back to the block as a ground. Sorry for continued questions I just dont want to fry this thing. I appreciate the help
bgmcl60
07-07-2017, 11:42 AM
my mag was a slick mag and it had 2 connectors at the bottom but only the left one looking at the wires coming out of mag was connected it went to my ign switch and back to ground on another pole. i didn't even use the mag connection at one time when i was having problems with the mag an could turn of key and power to carb solenoid was lost and shut fuel off and engine would die.
aewrigh
07-07-2017, 12:09 PM
You are correct, you can run two wires to those two points ( one being tach signal and the other an engine ground ) and run them to a switch for an effective kill switch. I just used the one wire and shield instead of two wires for testing. I will have two separate wires when I do final wiring
qahqn8
07-07-2017, 02:14 PM
Thanks for the clarification! I'll wire it up tonight
You are correct, you can run two wires to those two points ( one being tach signal and the other an engine ground ) and run them to a switch for an effective kill switch. I just used the one wire and shield instead of two wires for testing. I will have two separate wires when I do final wiring
qahqn8
07-11-2017, 10:09 AM
Thanks!
You are correct, you can run two wires to those two points ( one being tach signal and the other an engine ground ) and run them to a switch for an effective kill switch. I just used the one wire and shield instead of two wires for testing. I will have two separate wires when I do final wiring
aewrigh
07-11-2017, 10:26 AM
Any time! I wired up an engine stop switch and a lanyard kill switch on mine. Both do the same thing by grounding out the magneto/tach signal.
qahqn8
07-11-2017, 10:36 AM
Looking forward, you'd just wire the kill switch in line between the magneto and ignition switch correct?
Any time! I wired up an engine stop switch and a lanyard kill switch on mine. Both do the same thing by grounding out the magneto/tach signal.
qahqn8
07-11-2017, 10:50 AM
Sorry that didnt make sense even to me... let me rephrase-
The kill switch should be wired so that is bypasses the ignition switch and connects the mag/tach lead to the main ground when it is pulled?
Looking forward, you'd just wire the kill switch in line between the magneto and ignition switch correct?
aewrigh
07-11-2017, 10:53 AM
In order for an ignition switch to work on these motors to start and stop an engine, the switch would need a Momentary "start " contact and a contact that is open in the on position to run the tach signal to, then to ground on the other side of that contact. That way when the key is turned off it grounds the tach signal. I will draw something up real quick and post it.
aewrigh
07-11-2017, 11:08 AM
This is rough and quick but see if it helps any. Any more questions just holler.
aewrigh
07-11-2017, 11:11 AM
Just have to remember on these motors, they don't need power to start and run. So the ignition circuit and stop/kill circuits are pretty much separate
qahqn8
07-11-2017, 11:17 AM
Hahaha diagram is worth a thousand words. Thank you, more or less what I was thinking! This is my first run with magnetos and I hate running electrical to begin with so I appreciate your help. Would this ignition switch be OK assuming it can handle the final amp load?
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/sierra--ignition-switch-magneto-type-3-pos-5-term--404956?cm_mmc=PS-_-Google-_-GSC%2520-%2520Vendors-_-404956&product_id=404956&adpos=1o2&creative=108421554844&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=Cj0KCQjw7pHLBRDqARIsAFyKPa6Se9u0poE9MQLDYv6s c_CYeT1xzymrknLpGdjzJxuo9dasSEHuOXoaAtk-EALw_wcB
Thanks again man
aewrigh
07-11-2017, 11:21 AM
Looks like it would to me
Corky
07-11-2017, 10:21 PM
Here's a pic of a typical magneto ignition switch...One shows the standardized color coded wiring,one shows the schematic of the terminals...There's a few different types to choose from...One on the left has a "push to choke" feature in the switch...Right has no choke but an accessory circuit...Notice how the switch grounds the magneto...
qahqn8
07-12-2017, 08:49 AM
Thanks Corky. I've been looking at these. I'm just wired mine last night to a simple two position toggle for when I'm tuning the new carb on the bench. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can for down the road! My one question is the terminal labeled "ignition circuit"... I'm assuming that goes to the choke solenoid on the carb? The terminal labeled "solenoid" should go to starter solenoid right? Thanks!
qahqn8
07-12-2017, 11:33 AM
Out of curiosity what kind of tach did you go with? I'd like to stick with something I can just hook up to the magneto lead if possible.
aewrigh
07-12-2017, 12:01 PM
I went with a Faria marine/boat tach
Corky
07-12-2017, 05:57 PM
I went with a Faria marine/boat tach
Same here faria boat tach...There's a few to choose from make sure you get one that's a 4 stroke NOT a 2 stroke outboard...Here's a pic of the back of mine note the choice of cylinders,input, and the 4 stroke notation...
Corky
07-12-2017, 06:09 PM
My one question is the terminal labeled "ignition circuit"... I'm assuming that goes to the choke solenoid on the carb? The terminal labeled "solenoid" should go to starter solenoid right? Thanks! Iginition circuit would be anything that needs to be on when the engine is running {gauges,etc...} typically that circuit is good to 15-20 amps depending on the switch.. Accessory circuit would be any items that you want on without the engine running {fish finder etc,,,}The rest you are correct...It's really just a different way to describe what aewrigh has drawn up for you...The complicated part comes in when you need to determine just what you want to run through the switch and what will get a dedicated circuit/switch ...
EDIT: I wanted to add this while we're discussing the switch...Keep in mind you may get the switch wet at some point and even a switch that has"non corroding internals and body" might have some trouble if it's full of water...I got one with a rubber cover on it which probably won't help if the key is in the slot while it's raining...Best option would be to have the switch mounted horizontally to get the water to sheet off the key hole...Even I could'nt follow my own advice when I built mine...:lol:...But I do have a cover that would go over it in the event of a downpour...My small mini has a sealed, plastic ammo box for the console so if it rains I can shut the lid and keep going...
qahqn8
07-14-2017, 01:32 PM
OK guys need some advice -
From a financial perspective im leaninn towards the arrowprop redrive, can always upgrade later if necessary. That means I need a starter gear. I like what bgmcl60 did with the Harley gear and flexplate but I know my machining skills are not at the point to get tolerances that close. Other thing is price, the flex plate and 102 bit ring gear at about $150. For $150 i could buy a Briggs flywheel and only have to worry about drilling holes.
https://www.jackssmallengines.com/jacks-parts-lookup/part/briggs-stratton/693557
Any opinions on this idea and product? Fairly small diameter (11'') and I could take magnets off to reduce weight.
bgmcl60 I'd appreciate your opinion as well since you run that arrowprop redrive. Would an 11'' flywheel clear the bottom pulley?
bgmcl60
07-14-2017, 09:39 PM
i tried a 10 in chevy flexplate and wouldn;t clear the bottom pulley with the short belt arrow uses.thats why i used a harley ring gear. 102 tooth is just big enough to reach your starter and small enough to clear the lower pulley. you could buy a longer belt and use a larger ring gear but i used what i knew would work. the chevy mini starter is the right tooth pitch for harley ring gear and less work mounting it and shimming if needed. i bolted the ring gear to center of chevy flexplate and didn't like it and cut down the flex plate to weld on side of harley ring gear. i was a little worried about the temper in the flex plate after welding but it shows no sign of cracking and its been starter more in one night when the mag went out than 6 months of normal use.
qahqn8
07-18-2017, 03:01 PM
Hey guys -
Good news got the motor running with the new solex carb and intake from Papee. Idled great, really smooth but it bogged down when I tried opening the throttle up. Im guessing it may need different jets or a timing adjustment? Any thoughts on this would be great. Making progress! Thanks again.
qahqn8
07-19-2017, 11:53 AM
Here video of it running with the Brosol carb on it. Like I said in the previous post it idles great (maybe a little fast) but bogs out when I try to throttle up. Anyone who has done this conversion have any suggestions? Thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsKutDgo-5Q
qahqn8
07-19-2017, 12:55 PM
Thinking about this tach... seems like everyone is pretty happy with Faria
https://fariabeede.com/2-pages/aftermarket.php
what is the choke setting? is the choke open or closed when it bogs out?
if the choke is in the closed position, it will bog out the motor with too much fuel.
there are just a few variables to look at before you start making adjustments.
i have found in dealing with multiple carbs on my snowmachines, is to make only one adjustment at a time, then test it. if you make a couple or more adjustments between testing it. you never really know if you are gaining or loosing.
you may have looked at the links below, but i have found some useful information from them in
http://www.vw-resource.com/34pict3.html
http://www.vw-resource.com/automatic_choke.html
i am waiting for a few more parts and pieces for my 084 motor. but i have referred to these web pages, to find the information to do the preliminary adjustments on the carburetor set up that i am going with.
but it looks like you are having fun.
qahqn8
07-19-2017, 01:29 PM
Hi Bart!
Yeah the engine is warm and the choke is open when it bogs out. I've seen the links you provided and adjusted the carbs prior to starting it. Im just wondering if the guys who make this conversion can get away with tuning the carb or if modifications to the timing/distributor were needed. You know how it goes, one day in the garage then three doing research!
Glad your build is moving forward. Are you looking for any parts at this point? I'm having a blast with this thing. Its a great excuse to learn a lot!
http://miniairboatassoc.com/forum/images/reputation/reputation_neg.png
i found this in the 084 engine thread. this might help you out.
http://miniairboatassoc.com/forum/images/reputation/reputation_neg.pnghttp://miniairboatassoc.com/forum/image.php?u=8361&dateline=2010 (http://miniairboatassoc.com/forum/member.php?8361-dak10)Join DateOct 2008Locationinverness flPosts47
Re: Better carb for 084
well i can tell u all that if u run the brosol solex carb it will in fact run to lean. i did some reseach on the solex an to find out it is set to run super lean. so any one running the solex will have to rejet it.main jet,idel jet,and excellerator pump tube i found that it runs around 450 to 475+ degrees and i think that is to damn HOT. so i got the jets a 170 will flood it out but the stock fuel pump seem to do a good job of keeping up with the demand,so i have been playing with this and i think i got it but i have not had time to hit the water. oh ps i do know where to get the jets after 2 day of hunting
and do not run the 084 to long with a stock brosol solex carb or it WILL melt down
Ron Paxson
Hull: airboat pro 11.6 mini with frog spit
Rig: 1/2 emt
Engine: Teledyne 4a-084-4
Carb: Solex/Brosol H30/31 with main jet 150.needle & seat 2.0 mm.idel jet .55
Reduction: 1.64:1
Prop: 60in warp drive 3 blade 10 degrees pitch
Speed: 38 mph
Max RPMs: 3400
fuel tank: 12 gal
head temp: 350-400
qahqn8
07-19-2017, 02:57 PM
Sweet. Good to know about the jets and running hot. Papee had mentioned having to do something with the mag and Im still trying to figure that out. May PM him..
i was thinking about the statement Ron was making, where even though he is running a smaller 30/31 Brosol carb, now most are going to the 34 pict 3 carb .
all of these carbs were jetted to run a 1600 to 1800 CC motor, running this bigger CC motor, there is more air flow going through the carb, so the jetting will be smaller. thus when we adapt the same carb to a smaller CC motor. you have less air flow going through the carb, so all the jetting needs to be just a little bit bigger.
last winter i looked at this quite a bit, and read up on the different carbs that were put on the Suzuki samurai 1300 cc motor. which has to be jetted a little richer to make it work.
i first noticed this when i compared the carb off the 042 to the carb from the 048 motor. in the back of my mind i was thinking that only 2 cylinders, the jetting needed to be smaller, but that wasn't the case j
below is what i found
i posted this with pictures in the "Dual Intake manifold thoughts "
last night I thought I would compare the carb off of the 4A084 to the carb off of the 2A042, just to see what the differences are. thy are a simple carb, but I may not have the correct terms for parts I will be talking about. in the pictures posted below the 4A084 carb will be on the left, and the 2A042 carb will be on the right.
the carb bodies are the same, both are # 13206E1170, on the top of the 4A084,there are the numbers stamped 13620 20hp. and on the top of the 2A042 it is stamped 13619 10 hp
(4a084 ) are the first numbers, (2a042) are the second numbers
metering suction rod (084)outside dia. .093 in. (042) .1225
inside dia.(084) .0550 (042) smaller than3/32 (.0938), larger than 5/64(.0781)
suction hole on bottom side dia.(084) .0420 (042) .0465
feed hole on top by threads (084) .0225 (042) .0420
well nut (084) 3 holes at .0380 (042) 4 holes at .0465
I used drill bits that were available to find the closest size
the same body style of carb had to nearly double all its jetting for half the air flow going through it.
i do remember reading some place on this forum, where someone purchase a new stock carb, and the motor would idle, but would fall flat on its face when any throttle was given, what he found out, he had purchased a carb for the 042 motor, and now seeing the oversized jetting, he went the other way. with a major flooding issue.
i have been following and learning a little from Corky with his build, and have purchased a O2 Wideband analyzer kit to install on my motor. took a gamble and picked up a used one off Ebay for around 130.00
but it it works, i wont be having to second guess what i am doing.
as for any parts at this point, i have enough stuff on hand at the moment. got a new starter coming in the mail. found a good deal on one like what Bgmcl60 has on his build. it only took 2 weeks for them to put it in the mail. so maybe by the end of the week i will see how good of an deal it was.
the fun thing though. last night when we went out playing on the airboat, my wife couldn't believe how fast 3 hours went by. ( that was 3 hours of running it in circles, and the only down time was changing drivers.) me i couldn't believe that i had still over 1/2 of a tank of gas left. so it was a win win.
qahqn8
07-19-2017, 03:33 PM
Hey Bart:
Glad you're able to have some fun and that it doesnt guzzle fuel! I'm still using the 30/31 Brosol so it was made for the smaller VW engines. I rebuilt it and it has new pump gaskets, springs, etc. so I know nothing is wore out. I'm guessing it may still need a little bit bigger jets? Will continue to research and pester everyone!!! Seriously they may block me from this forum. I ask a hundred questions a week!
aewrigh
07-19-2017, 04:33 PM
With the very few active members the veterans are just going to have to deal with us newbies. Most everyone I have come in contact with on here is very helpful and a great bunch of guys!
qahqn8
07-19-2017, 04:38 PM
I couldn't agree more. This forum and group of guys is fantastic.
qahqn8
07-20-2017, 09:56 AM
Took Papee's advice and loosened up the accelerator arm and it seemed to help the bogging problem quite a bit. It will rev when I hit the throttle now but i had to open it very slowly. Not sure if it was all the way warmed up either because upon further review I think my choke is not working perfectly. The choke valve will be completely open after about 30 seconds of running which seems pretty fast to me (granted I live in Corpus Christi and its been over 105 down here). The motor idles a little rough until about 2 minutes in then it smooths out, im guessing once it actually warms up. Im gonna tinker with the choke first then get back to throttle response.
qahqn8
07-20-2017, 02:14 PM
65 idle jet 150 main jet and a 2.0mm needle valve i hope this helps
qahqn8
07-21-2017, 09:17 PM
3439
Has anyone bought this model faria tach? They say it is universal to all outboards which to me sounds like it could work on a 4 stroke with a magneto. See directions below for the question hahaha
qahqn8
07-21-2017, 09:19 PM
3441
Heres my hang up - it specifically says alternator. Can I hook the signal lead to the magneto? I bought it because i got a deal on it but id prefer not to fry it. any help is appreciated
Corky
07-21-2017, 11:05 PM
Well, I hate to say it and be the bearer of bad news but...that's the two stroke tach and so the reason for the alternator "unrectified" hook-up ...It probably wont work with the 084 4 stroke engine magneto signal...Outboards are 2 stroke and high revs{for the most part} that's the reason for the 7 grand RPM readout on the face{at least in the faria brand tachs}... Here's the front and back of a 4 stroke tach...Note the 6k face and the notation on back for the "4 cycle only"...
i wonder if this style would work with an old cuyuna 2 stroke?
qahqn8
07-24-2017, 10:09 AM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!:-?
OK I kinda had that gut feeling, but like I said I got it for a steal. I'll just sell it on ebay and find the right one. Corky you wouldnt happen to know the model number on yours would you? Thanks for the help!
qahqn8
07-24-2017, 10:10 AM
Not sure, it says universal on it so it might. If you're interested PM me and I'll cut you a deal on it.
i wonder if this style would work with an old cuyuna 2 stroke?
Corky
07-24-2017, 08:41 PM
OK I'm going to link the Faria site to show you what I'm talking about...There's some basic choices as you'll see each design of aftermarket tach has a selection for the type of engine the boat runs...
Here's the three :A} diesel,B}outboard and C}inboard{all components are in an engine bay only the shaft/prop comes through the hull}and I/O{engine is in an engine bay and outdrive is on the outside of the hull probably the most common today}..
Diesel is only a 4 grand tach and I'm not sure if the "mag signal" is compatable with the 084..Speaking of diesel you'll notice some diesel tachs have a mechanical input I'd like to try one with the 084s tach drive to see if it reads correctly sometime...
Outboard is 2 cycle and a 7 grand tach
The inboard I/O with the 6 grand tach is for 4cycle like the 084 that's the input you need to find...If you look closely at Aerigh's pic of the tach backside you'll see the "4cycle only" on his also...
Each style of Faria tach will have an input for each type of engine just find the style you like and make sure you get the part number indicated for the correct inputs... The faria site has a wealth of info including how to hook up each gauge correctly look it over carefully it's all there... Here's the link to the tach part number page.. https://fariabeede.com/2-pages/prod_display.php?calledGauge=2_tach
Papee
07-24-2017, 11:48 PM
I've had the Faria white analog with digital hour meter on my boat for years and it still works fine.
qahqn8
07-26-2017, 03:11 PM
Thanks Corky
qahqn8
10-24-2017, 01:28 PM
Hi Guys - hope everybody is doing well. Things have been busy around here and I haven't had time to work on the motor in about 3 months due to a promotion and Hurricane Harvey dropping on us. I honestly don't know when I'll be able to work on the motor in the near future and could use some money to help offset the costs we incurred with the Hurricane. For that reason I listing this motor for sale i the classifieds section. Hopefully I'll get the opportunity to do this again soon. I'll definitely keep trolling the forum and learning from you all! Thank you!
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