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Papee
03-02-2010, 05:13 PM
HELP!!!!! ;rasta;

I'll do a step by step of the install of the kit I just got from Chuck at Airboat Pros.

Step 1 HELP!!!!
Chuck do you have a wiring diagram for this? I have a rotary ignition/starter switch. I think I may just keep the ignition/kill switch separate for now so I can turn off the charging system to see if there is a difference in rpms. If there is no difference or little difference I'll move the kill switch over to the rotary/key switch later.

Do I have it together right so far? :&&:

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I also got my Telflex steering cable today. I'll put that project in another thread when I'm done with this project.


A full tech article and installation can be found on the main site here:
http://miniairboatassoc.com/?page_id=17

Papee
03-02-2010, 05:45 PM
For those wondering what Chuck did with the engine pulley here's a photo.

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And here is a stock pulley.

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Duane Scarborough
03-02-2010, 07:13 PM
HELP!!!!! ;rasta;

I'll do a step by step of the install of the kit I just got from Chuck at Airboat Pros.

Step 1 HELP!!!!
Chuck do you have a wiring diagram for this? I have a rotary ignition/starter switch. I think I may just keep the ignition/kill switch separate for now so I can turn off the charging system to see if there is a difference in rpms. If there is no difference or little difference I'll move the kill switch over to the rotary/key switch later.

Do I have it together right so far? :&&:

[attachment=0:2ea6tcsz]002.JPG[/attachment:2ea6tcsz]

I also got my Telflex steering cable today. I'll put that project in another thread when I'm done with this project.

Papee,

I'm glad that you've got it, and are starting a "how to" thread. ;thumb;

It "looks" a lot like the starter/generator that I have. But looks can be deceiving. ;thumb;

I won't even try to start telling you how to wire it. We'll let Chuck do that. ;) I wouldn't want to mix things up with wrong info. Besides, I'd like to see Chuck's ideas on this...

But, about the separate kill switch vs combined ignition/starter switch:

Here's my thoughts on that. (for what it's worth)

I've thought this over, and considered a few options.

Combining the rotary/key switch with the magneto kill switch might be convenient for everyday running. But it'd make the wiring just a "little" more complicated.

Having a separate kill switch would let you do things that you could not do otherwise. Like turning the engine over (with or without the starter) and a dead magneto. That might be handy for priming the engine, or for troubleshooting reasons.

The down side of this is that it's another thing to keep up with. The up side is that it'd be one switch to check before you turn the prop over by hand.

I'll be listening for other opinions... ;garfield;

Thanks,

Duane

chuckitt
03-02-2010, 07:52 PM
I know i uploaded a wiring diagram at one time but i can't find it now. I had it in the gallery. I just tried to get into the gallery and it kicks me off the site so i can't get into it to upload another. I will try to do it from the post.
Thanks, Chuck

chuckitt
03-02-2010, 08:09 PM
This is the diagram we use to wire the Starter/Generator kit.

chuckitt
03-02-2010, 08:15 PM
Charging current flow.

chuckitt
03-02-2010, 08:16 PM
Cranking Current Flow.

Papee
03-02-2010, 09:41 PM
Thanks Chuck that helps. I do need to know what the red and yellow wires are on the rectifier to finish figuring it out.

EDIT: I've updated the wiring in this drawing.

Duane, your input is always welcome. On my boat I have always had the magneto/kill switch separate so I'm use to it. As you say there are benefits to doing it both ways. If someone wants to include the kill on the starter switch we can cover that later. I know that there are a lot of different versions of the key switches so that would be a different thread on it's own.

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chuckitt
03-03-2010, 08:05 AM
Hey Papee, look at the Golf Cart wiring an locate the Voltage Regulator. Follow the wires to where they hook up. The solenoid can't be hooked to the start terminal on the switch. It will only crank it but wan't charge. The solenoid wire has to be hooked to the ing terminal on the key switch so the solenoid will stay energized to make the charging system work. It also means that when you switch the key on, the motor will start cranking. Thats why a continuous duty solenoid must be used.
Thanks, Chuck

Papee
03-03-2010, 10:06 AM
So Red is Pos and Yellow is field on the rectifier?

chuckitt
03-03-2010, 08:11 PM
Yes Papee, that's right.
Chuck

Duane Scarborough
03-03-2010, 09:23 PM
Papee,

There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh2/TullieD/starter-generatorwiringdiagrams.jpg

Duane

Papee
03-03-2010, 09:24 PM
Thanks Chuck I just wanted to make sure. You don't get a second chance with these electronic parts.

chuckitt
03-04-2010, 07:27 AM
Yea papee, we should have put an external jumper from A2 to F1. Look at the Cranking & Charging diagrams.
Thanks, Chuck

Papee
03-04-2010, 05:00 PM
Well, I got the boat up to the garage today, I spent most of the day making a new rear bumper for my ABTD(Air Boat Transit Device). Now not only do I get great fuel milage while on the river, I get awesome mileage getting there. Now the total cost for a day on the river will be about $20.

The bumper weighs almost as much as the ABTD

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Here's the new setup, don't be too Jealous Guys. :&&:

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I didn't get much done to the boat although I did get the mufflers attached and ready to go. Now all the welding is out of the way.
It's supposed to be nice for the next few days so I should be able to get the parts on. My plan is to get everything mounted tomorrow then wire it the next day. I still can't climb around the boat very well or stay on my feet for long so my time is limited.

Duane Scarborough
03-04-2010, 07:11 PM
Papee,

Hey, your ABTD even matches the boat. Nice. ;thumb;

If I run across a deal on one of those, I might buy it. I've always thought
that it'd be a nice toy. I wouldn't want to take a long trip in one, but It'd
be fun to play on the beaches of the Outer Banks. ;thumb;

How many terminals does your starter/generator have? Mine has 5.

It's supposed to be a Hitachi replacement for a Club Car 1018337-01.

The only label on it is a paper label with "Dynamo Motor 9B008JDG8005",
and a bar code.

There are MANY variations of starter/generators out there. So, how you wire
it will vary. Does your's have a part number / Manufacturers info on it?

Duane

Papee
03-04-2010, 09:30 PM
I'll look Duane but I got it from Chuck so it's most likely the number he posted before. It is a 5 post.

Duane Scarborough
03-04-2010, 09:41 PM
I'll look Duane but I got it from Chuck so it's most likely the number he posted before. It is a 5 post.

I missed that somehow. ;bawl;

Let us know how it works out.

Thanks,

Duane

Papee
03-04-2010, 09:52 PM
Here's a pic. I went to the hardware today to get some of that secret stealth paint and they acted like it didn't exist so I had to settle for hammered black paint for my pulley.

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Papee
03-04-2010, 10:14 PM
Another thought. It's getting dangerous around here with all the thinking. My understanding of the rectifier is that if the battery does not need charged the rectifier turns the current to heat. I'm thinking about making an aluminum mounting plate for the rectifier to help dissipate the heat. Am I think correctly?

Duane Scarborough
03-05-2010, 12:29 AM
Papee,

It's hard to find that secret stealth paint if you don't know the secret code words. :&&: :&&: :&&:

I can give you the secret code words, IF you have the stealth paint cord word security clearance. ;thumb;

A heat sink is a good thing for any solid state voltage regulator, but I also think that it's simpler than you imagine.

If the battery voltage is up, the voltage regulator should reduce the load on the generator. (through the "DF" connection.) You should not have to be concerned about it turning the current into heat.

But I'm planning to use my starter/generator as a starter only. (with no connection to the DF terminal at all, and no need for a constant duty solenoid)

There's already an alternator under the rope pull pulley. Plus, it makes the wiring a little simpler, and easier to trouble shoot. A permanent magnet alternator will charge better at lower RPMs. And I just don't like the idea of having to use the starter/generator connected all of the time through a continuous duty solenoid.

Yeah, it works on the golf carts. But a golf cart won't leave you stranded in the river. ;bawl;

Check with Buster. He's doing pretty much the same thing with his set up. (at least the charging part)

Duane

buster
03-05-2010, 01:35 AM
Papee,

I am not sure about your setup, but using the built in alternator, I have my voltage regulator mounted to a 4" x 6" x 1/4" hunk of scrap aluminum.

Hank said it is a good idea to mount it on some sort of a heat sink.

Dave

Papee
03-05-2010, 02:25 PM
After a call to Chuck to refresh my memory about the adjustment bracket I was on my way.

Here are the contents of the kit, you can call Chuck at Airboat Pros for pricing at (352) 330-1015
Mounting Bracket
Starter/generator
Modified Pulley
solenoid
Belt
adjusting bracket
Rectifier

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First on the list was to mount the bracket, this bracket mounts on the four bolts on the bottom of the oil pan.
Notice the front mount in this photo, This is left over damage from my tree wreck. The engine got pushed forward a bit.
I left it because I liked the position of the pulley at the time because it was easier to pull with the rope. The pulley stuck out from the cage a little more. Don't fix if if it aint broke I guess. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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Next step was to mount the engine pulley, just take the nut off and a couple taps with the rubber mallet and it was off.

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Papee
03-05-2010, 02:31 PM
There is a bit of welding needed, there is a tab included that needs to be welded to the front engine mount. You could fab a new tab and bolt it if no welder is available.

Here is the position of the tab after welding.

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And with the bracket welded in place. I put on the starter at this point. It would be easier to weld the bracket while the pulley is off, you can get to it a little easier. I already had the pulley on so I moved forward.

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I put the starter on and mounted the bracket, then put on the belt to test how the belt ran on the pulley. The belt is in the middle of the engine pulley so I am ready to move on to the next step.

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Papee
03-05-2010, 02:38 PM
Last for this part of the install I mounted the solenoid. This location may be different for you depending on where your battery is.

8586

I didn't tighten any of the bolts because I will have to take the starter loose to do some of the electrical connections. At this point I have about a hour into the project. I measured for my battery cables and now I'm off to the auto parts store for the cables and some connectors for the next part of the project. I'll include the rectifier mounting in this part of the install.

Papee
03-05-2010, 02:46 PM
I'll post my diagram for the wiring again at this point. As I said earlier, I will be using two switches, one for the starter generator and one for the magneto. I wanted to keep them separate so I can turn off the charging system if needed for better cruising performance. I'll report back later on this if it is needed in the direct drive application.

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I mounted the rectifier close enough to the solenoid that I did not have to add to the red wire that goes to the battery, I just put this on the starter side of the solenoid, I did this so there would be no drain on the battery when the key was off. I made sure when running the wires that I had enough wire run that the starter could be tilted down at full swing in case repairs were needed later on.

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First thing I did was put on the jumper from the F1 to the A1 post.

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Papee
03-05-2010, 04:36 PM
Next I put the red wire on from the rectifier to the starter side of the solenoid.

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The yellow wire from the rectifier was next connecting to the DF terminal on the starter.

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Ground the rectifier.

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Papee
03-05-2010, 04:42 PM
I then hooked up the starter wire from the solenoid to the F2 terminal of the starter.

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I then ran a ground from A1 to the negative side of the battery.

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At this point I put the belt back on the starter and tightened all the starter bolts and adjusted the belt tension.

That was it for today, my knee was telling me it was time to quit for the day. All I have left is the wiring for the key switch and the connection to the battery which I will do last.

Papee
03-06-2010, 01:52 PM
I got the rest of the wiring done and had it started but had to quit because my youngest daughter is getting married today. I'll take a few more photos and a video tomorrow.

Papee
03-08-2010, 01:46 PM
Ok, I ran into some hurdles to over come, I'll have to go back and edit the diagram again. I hooked everything up according to the specs Chuck posted earlier and the starter was running backwards so Chuck called the starter supplier. They told us to switch the F1 and F2 wires so I did but it was not turning over very well and once it did start it was not charging. I fired up Google and searched around and found a golf cart site with the info I needed. I put the F1 and F2 wires back according to the factory diagram then switched the A1 and A2 wires. It spins just fine now with just a small battery and charges fine. I took a video of it starting, I'll add it as soon as it uploads to YouTube.

My small 100 amp deep cycle battery was getting a little tired from all the starting and adjusting the belt tension but it worked fine. I will be upgrading my battery. I am very satisfied with the results. Sorry about the video shake, once my leg gets tired I get a little shaky.

All photos and installation comments have been updated to show the changes described above.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3reAqWJcFl8

Duane Scarborough
03-08-2010, 08:11 PM
Papee,

That's looking good. I'm glad that you've got it working. ;thumb;

You may still want to think about upgrading that 10 guage jumper wire between the field and the armature. During the high current draw when starting there's going to be a substantial voltage drop across it. It might be enough to make a difference. Just something for you to consider. ;stir;

Also, on your wiring diagram, the red wire from the voltage regulator is still connected directly to the battery's positive terminal, NOT to the starter side of the solenoid as you described. I ain't trying to be picking at nits, but I do want anyone who follows to have the right info. ;garfield;

Thanks,

Duane

Papee
03-08-2010, 08:56 PM
Accck, Thanks Duane I forgot to change it. I did change that jumper to a heavier wire, I got some battery cables and spare ends last night so I could make the short wire. My battery was just over 10 volts when I did the video so the heavier wires most definitely made a difference. I also ran the ground to the battery as you suggested. I have it both ways now, I let the other ground to the engine on that I had on also. can't have too many grounds.

Papee
03-17-2010, 10:46 AM
Ok here's the new video of it cranking with the 875 amp battery. I kept the magneto switch off a few times to show how it turns over because it starts right up.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiQlvXNU2Z8

Duane Scarborough
03-17-2010, 05:51 PM
Hey, she spins over really nice ! ;thumb;

That impulse magneto makes it "sound" like the engine is going to come apart, but it's just doing it's job.

It looks like a 875 AH battery is plenty big enough. ;garfield;

Thanks,

Duane

Papee
06-11-2011, 01:58 PM
Just adding a little more info on this setup. My starter/gen was getting a little slow so I pulled off the rubber over the brushes and my brushes were getting short. I replaced the brushes and used some fine sandpaper on the armature and it's back to starting like new. This may seem a bit soon but I probably start my motor 20-30 times in a day of fishing and I have a lot of time on my motor.

I got the brushes online for $20 for the set. I got an extra set while I was ordering. The whole job took about an hour.

buster
06-12-2011, 09:35 AM
Papee,

Glad to see you got your starter/generator setup working the way it should. I probably would have done mine that way if I could have gotten it to work. I never was completely satisfied with the factory alternater setup, but the starter I ended up with works great. ;thumb;

Dave

2006rubicon
06-16-2011, 10:41 PM
Another thought. It's getting dangerous around here with all the thinking. My understanding of the rectifier is that if the battery does not need charged the rectifier turns the current to heat. I'm thinking about making an aluminum mounting plate for the rectifier to help dissipate the heat. Am I think correctly?
Nice Install! ;thumb;
Re-visiting the aluminum heat sink plate issue briefly, I'm certainly not an authority here, and I'm a nube on this forum for sure;rasta; and this is a theoretical, but from what I can remember from tech school, I believe rectifiers are on alternators and consist of diodes in a bridge configuration to turn the AC generated to DC, but a generator does not have a rectifier because it produces DC current directly. I was taught the rotor on a generator has commutators, which keep the magnetic field one polarity, and the alternator has slip rings, which allows the polarity to change in the field windings as the rotor spins, producing AC power, (which then has to be turned into DC by...the RECTIFIER!!!;garfield;) In BOTH cases, charging current is controlled by the voltage REGULATOR which moderates the relatively small magnetizing current across the field , ie-the windings on the rotor (why the yellow field wire is so small compared to the main output), and either weakens or strengthens the magnetic field, and corresponding stator winding output (the main output). in both cases, if the batt voltage is good, the voltage regulator simply dials back the field excitation and the main output falls off. The major difference is that the generators can be full fielded (full magnetism) and voltage applied to the stator, and it will become a motor, allowing them to act like starters too. Alternators cannot do this because they have rectifiers, which act like check valves, and even without them they would need to be fed AC voltage like a regular synchronous AC motor, (kinda hard to do with a battery!;thumb;) Sooo in closing, yes, I would think it's a good idea to put an aluminum heat sink on the voltage regulator regardless, the current it controls is small, but if my logic is good it will increase resistance when it throttles down and thus produce more heat (I=E/R), and they can get hotter than a two peckered goat from that anyways!:&&:

Duane Scarborough
06-17-2011, 06:03 PM
Rubicon,

What you said was close enough. ;garfield;

A solid state rectifier/regulator DOES need a heat sink. A finned aluminum heat sink would be great, but if you've got any large metal object to mount it to, that'd probably work OK too.

If someone wants a finned aluminum heat sink, I can send you one. I've got a few that I've salvaged from stuff. They're over sized, (approx 6" x 10") but you can cut them down to size easily. Let me know.

Duane

Rollbar
05-01-2016, 10:22 PM
Parts list/Number?
I read the entire post, nice post.

Is there a way to have a starter and some other way to charge the battery. I know nothing, absolutely nothing about these engines or Magnetos etc.

Any one have other setups to look at?

I did read about the Chevy 14" flexplate and I didn't like how it covered the fins on the jugs etc.

Thanks,
Jim

Corky
05-01-2016, 10:51 PM
I'm pretty sure Papee ran into some reliability issues with this set-up and does'nt run it anymore...He'll chime in on what happended in the long run...

Papee
05-02-2016, 08:51 AM
Yes, the starter side of this setup didn't do well. It took a lot of amps to get the starter to work which shortened the life of the starter/gen.

Rollbar
05-02-2016, 09:26 AM
OK thanks.

So why not run a 24v system since the 4a084 is already setup for 24v, or is it just the added weight of two batteries?

Bart
05-02-2016, 02:41 PM
a couple of things to think about, if you were to keep the 24v setup. you have 2 batteries bouncing around, and all the accessories would need to be 24v compatible.
me, I am adapting everything to a 12 volts,
the first reason, is this is what I have on hand. also I can go to the local Napa store, and things that I need are on the shelf.
from what I have dealt with anything that is 24 volt, can be very heavy.
and every one is trying to cut out all the weight, that they can

Papee
05-02-2016, 02:45 PM
Pretty much what bart said, I use the stock charging system with an Onan rectifier.

Link to rectifier
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ONAN-Voltage-Regulator-Rectifier-John-Deere-318-420-Onan-P-B-Engine-16-20HP-NEW-/330614674877

Rollbar
05-02-2016, 02:48 PM
Agreed but maybe easier and two small batteries instead of the large size to use. All you need is starting and a few resistors (I think or) to get the LED to run on lights or even a converter off the battery.
But in any case, yes, things would have to be modified. Might be cheaper, not sure.

If not, then does anyone have a diagram of their set up and the wiring conversion on the motor (I haven't received mine yet so I don't know or even know what to take off etc.)?

Rollbar
05-02-2016, 02:53 PM
Papee, I mist have replied right after your post and didn't see it. I'll look at the info.
Thanks,

Rollbar
05-02-2016, 02:59 PM
Pretty much what bart said, I use the stock charging system with an Onan rectifier.

Link to rectifier
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ONAN-Voltage-Regulator-Rectifier-John-Deere-318-420-Onan-P-B-Engine-16-20HP-NEW-/330614674877

On Amazon also:
http://www.amazon.com/VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-RECTIFIER-TRACTOR-318-420/dp/B00ACXS1QU

Rollbar
05-02-2016, 03:56 PM
Papee, how is yours hooked up/diagram?

I see AC/B+/AC tabs and I'm guessing the the AC from the motor/generator runs to that and the lights off B+ ?

Also, I'm guessing that the Generator has a receptacle on it already (will know more when it arrives) and if so is this possible-to leave one hooked up and then you have AC power on the boat if needed? Has anyone thought of that or is it to big and cumbersome to leave it for that purpose.

P.S. Can others provide a wiring diagram?

Papee
05-03-2016, 07:46 AM
It's easy, the b+ goes to your battery positive through a switch/ign and the other two get hooked to the wires coming out of your alt on the engine. Doesn't matter which goes on which on the outside two.

Rollbar
05-03-2016, 09:07 AM
Ok I'll have to look into this later cause I'm confused. Not by our directions, but the 24v system in then you say an alternator.

So to get this right, you are saying to KEEP the 24v system ON the motor, then add this rectifier sending/connecting the two wires to the alternator on the engine to charge one battery (center tab B+) making it 12v system converted from a 24v system in theory. Then run things off the 12v battery, correct?

Thanks and please ignore my ignorance in this.

Jim

Bart
05-03-2016, 10:49 AM
a couple of things to think about,
the original set up the 4A084, motor comes with an eternal voltage regulator that will reduce the voltage coming out of the stator to 24 volts,
the voltage regulator mentioned above, reduces the voltage to 12-14 volts, from which you can operate the 12 volt system,

voltage regulators can fail, on my snowmobiles that will happen every couple of years, you usually find out that this happens, when all your lighting has failed,
I have measured the voltage coming out of some of my other toys, BEFORE the regulator, and if my memory is correct, the stator was putting out 38 to 40 volts.
all that you are asking of the voltage regulator is to reduce the stator output to what you are needing, it can be 24 volts, 12 volts, or 6 volts.

you have to remember that this motor was built in the 60's & 70's, and all vehicles from that time, had an external voltage regulator on them.

Rollbar
05-03-2016, 03:20 PM
a couple of things to think about,
the original set up the 4A084, motor comes with an eternal voltage regulator that will reduce the voltage coming out of the stator to 24 volts,
the voltage regulator mentioned above, reduces the voltage to 12-14 volts, from which you can operate the 12 volt system,

voltage regulators can fail, on my snowmobiles that will happen every couple of years, you usually find out that this happens, when all your lighting has failed,
I have measured the voltage coming out of some of my other toys, BEFORE the regulator, and if my memory is correct, the stator was putting out 38 to 40 volts.
all that you are asking of the voltage regulator is to reduce the stator output to what you are needing, it can be 24 volts, 12 volts, or 6 volts.

you have to remember that this motor was built in the 60's & 70's, and all vehicles from that time, had an external voltage regulator on them.

OK thank you very much. Hopefully it had a book w/the motor when it arrives. Makes since and thank you.